Horrible Mechanics
 

R1 and R2 and one out. I've got the plate. I told my partner during pre-game that I would take the call at third base on a tag up. Batter hits a bloop into center field, which F8 charges and appeared to trap. BU gives no signal and no verbal. Runners don't know whether to return to the base or run. I don't know whether to come up the line to make a call on a possible tag up into 3B. Apparently BU ruled the ball was caught because F8 threw the ball to F3 to double off R1.

The question which popped into my head as I was driving home is what should I have done if the throw went into third base, as this could have been a tag play (assuming R2 went back to tag and the ball was caught) or force play (if the ball wasn't caught)?

I think that you would have to make the call on what you saw. If you have a catch then call on the tag, if you have a trap call on the force. When it's your partner's call and he does nothing you cannot make the call for him, he needs to either call it or ask for help. If you try to make the call for him you run the risk of double-calling the play which I have found to be a bigger problem then not calling anything.

I have a question. Were you already going to 3B? If not, why? If you are going to cover a tag up, then why weren't you getting there as the play developed? You should have been there as soon as the ball was going to the outfield. If you have 3B on the tag up, you should have 3B on the play unless you read it as they would have no chance on him after the ball wasn't caught and stayed at the plate for a possible play. Otherwise, you will be making the call at 3B on the run since you are hanging out at the plate to wait and see if he tags up.

So, as soon as I can see the fly ball is going to the outfield(exception is a ball down RF line), I am heading to 3B to cover the play there while my partner has 2B and possibly 1B.

Why would the PU take a tag up into 3rd? It's the BU call!

No, it is the PU call with R1 and R2. BU with R2 only.

Correct.

So, you are going to leave BU to cover 3 bases on a play which you could help with 1 of them?

And, as Steve said, that is only with an R2 only or there is an R3 at any time. If R1 only or R1 and R2, then PU gets 3B for the play if there is going to be multiple runners such as an R1 and BR now or R2, R1, and BR.

Get out from behind HP and cover a base if possible. Don't leave BU to cover it all at all times. And, this is for hits to the outfield.

????
 

Quote:

As usual I am probably misunderstanding these two posts.

With R1 and R2 and less than 2 out. A tag up and play to third on R2 is 100% the responsibility of the PU.

The only time the PU does not take this call is when the flight of the ball takes him to RF line for a fair/foul call.

Am I missing something or do these two comments above NOT say the BU has the call at third?

It is hard enough for the BU to line up the tag at second, make a judgement on catch/no catch that the tag up at first is a guess after a glance. AND during this the PU would be sitting on his duff.

The PU moves towards the kitchen and then enters to the cut out if there is a runner, fielder and ball for a play.

Regards,

I get out from behind HP, but not in that situation. It's not the way 2 man crew works here. In the OP the Bu has the catch, tag and play at third. I would guess that R1 would have went halfway.

If it doesn't work that way, then I am glad I am not BU on that field. I am at 3B on that play every time unless ball toward RF foul line.

JR12,

What mechanics manual do you use "here"?

Because what Tim has decribed is exactly the way the PBUC Red Book and the CCA Manual say it should be handled in two man.

(Except I call it the "library" rather than the "kitchen" - because the library is where you go to "read", and the kitchen is where you go to get a beer. And I usually wait until after the game for that.)

JM

"I've got 3rd if he tags!!!!" the PU yells to his partner as he heads down the 3BL.

Proper 2 man mechanic and taught EVERYwhere I've ever been. PU has lead runner, BU has trailing runner.

In the OP - Wait for the play, ask your partner if he had a catch and make the call based on what he tells you. It's his call, force him to make it. That may not be the correct way to handle it, but I've been hung out by a partner with piss poor mechanics and I've have since decide to force his hand when it happens (at least if I'm ever on the field with certain partners).

Question: You are the BU taking that runner to 3rd, and F5 snaps a throw to F4 as R1 is sliding in a cloud of dust at 2nd base after tagging up at 1st. Whatcha gonna do now?

The base umpire has the catch and tag of R2, a glance at R1 if he is tagging, and then he has R1 at 2nd or 1st, and R2 if he returns to 2nd. He does NOT have R2 at 3rd base. That has always been the PU call for at least as long as I've been an umpire in every mechanics manual on planet Earth.

Neither of you is correct, but you know that by now.

With R1+R2, the plate umpire has the play at third. The BU may have the catch, will have the tag at second, but the play at third belongs to the plate umpire if he doesn't call out "I'm on the line."

We had a play this season where I had a very close play at third (safe) and F5 gunned it to second and my partner was standing right there and called R1 out. If the BU had to get that himself, it would be very difficult. It could be done, but would look terrible.

I have learned not to respond with a viral headache. I still don't know what the hell I was thinking.

Sorry we go against the book. How often does r1 tag? How bout the overthrow at3b?

You get up on your horse and giddy-up back to the cut out at home (while watching the ball to make sure it doesn't go into DBT).

Why reinvent the wheel. The mechanic is like it is for a reason.
Actually quite often on deep drives that are read properly. Many times both runners move up as the throw is to 3rd base. Plus, R1 is BU responsibility at 1st base as well, like if R1 misreads and gets hung up between bases.
Then you follow the CCA, Red Book, etc. mechanics. The PU stays in fair territory and hustles back to the plate area and takes the play at home from there. He is, after all, the Plate Umpire.

Even if you say R1 tags 1% of the time, in that 1% of the time, BU is probably 85 feet away and PU is standing there watching skirts blow in the breeze.

On an overthrow, it's called hustle.

Edit: looks like I got beat to the punch

I was working my first intrasquad of the spring this year with a friend. I was the BU. Very high level varsity team (Nationally ranked) that was scrimmaging. For some reason we pregamed it that the BU would take the play into 3B with R1 and R2 on a tag-up play. (We changed after this play) Sure enough, there was a catch in right center and R2 tagged to go to third. I safed him at third on a banger, and R1 tagged and went into second. I had to make that call (Safe also) on the run going back toward second. I got it right, but it looked horrible mechanics-wise. We talked between innings and agreed that the PU needs to take that. That's how I've done it all season since that happened.

I'll definatly bring it up at the next meeting.

GA,

I'm coming up the line to make the call at third on a tag up. The problem I had is that with no catch or no catch verbal or signal, we risk a double call on a force at third. I'm making a call at third base if it is a tag up situation. If the ball is trapped, the force call still should be the call of BU.

Fairly often if R2 tags and there's a throw and play at third.

Before you do that, purchase a PBUC or CCA manual (preferably the CCA). Then study it so you can intelligently explain to your organization that what they are doing is incorrect!

Also be sure to add the remark from ManInBlue:

"I've got 3rd if he tags!!!!" the PU yells to his partner as he heads down the 3BL.

This lets the BU know what is going on. If I do not hear this from my partner (I'm the BU), then I know I have all 3 bases and I better be moving into position, not counting on the PU to be there.

Thanks Joe West!

No. You get to 3B anticipating the tag up. Then, you will have the force out as well. Are you waiting to see if he tags before going to 3B? If so, you are waiting too long. The force and tag are PU b/c it involves the R2 with BU staying at 2B for R1 and possibly BR.

Get to 3B and be ready for the play whether it is a force or tag. It sounds like the BU is not the only one with poor mechanics. And, no double call if your partner hears "I've got 3B! I've got 3B!" Then, he knows PU has 3B.

Pausing, reading and reacting when making my way to 3B. Strongly disagree that a force call into third base is the call of the PU. I always discuss tag ups with R1 and R2 and less than two outs during pre-game.

I'm with the guys that expect the base umpire to handle all force plays on the bases. You need distance for tag plays, you only need angle for force plays.

If the ball falls in the outfield, I'm returning home from the library -- the PU only covers third on a TAG play and that requires a catch of the fly ball.

When the ball is hit, PU busts it to the library to read the play. IF the ball is caught, AND the runner tags, AND there is a play on him at 3rd (fielder with the ball + the runner), then get to the cutout. If the ball is not caught, go back home. If there is no play, go back home. PU does not have the force or any other play on the bases.

Agreed with Dash and Rich. The play "changed" from a "caught fly" to a "base hit" -- and on a base hit with R1 and R2, PU stays home.

The play changed on a possibly "trapped" ball. If it is an obvious base hit, then yes, PU stays at home b/c of the timing of everything. But, on a play where there is a possibility of being caught and it is in question up until F8 comes up with the ball, PU stands around and waits to see?

In the OP, there was a question(strong possibility of being caught) so why would the PU be standing at HP to see if caught or not? And, it sounds like the play was read wrong and the PU got caught standing at HP instead of anticipating the play at 3B.

I would rather be on top of 3B letting my partner know I am there than to be standing at HP and guess wrong about the play.

So, as the F8 drops the ball, PU turns around and goes to HP. Then, the throw from F8 is off line and creates a TAG situation. PU could have been there on a very close FORCE play and take the TAG play. Instead, he chose to go to HP and just watch the entire play.

Maybe this is just a timing issue which is better to see how it all unfolded rather than talking about it. B/c I envision F8 about to catch it and the runners should be tagging with PU in position just in case he comes to 3B. Then, with the PU in position, F8 drops it. Why would the PU now go to HP when he is in great position for any call at 3B especially if F8 elects to go to 2B and turning the play at 3B into a TAG play? And, once the play concludes at 3B, he goes to HP for any play if the ball gets away. Just like he would on a TAG play.

Possible catch...
I'm coming to 3rd, "I'm at 3rd!"
Once I said I'm at 3rd, I'm at 3rd.
If the ball is dropped, I'm still at 3rd.
I'm not bailing on BU who now has two other runners to watch.

Most of my pre-games go something like this ... with runners on, ball leaves the infield, PU has lead guy at 3rd and then everone else is BU's. And BU always has BR at 3rd.

But you are not supposed to be "at third" unless there are three components to this -- a catch, a runner, and a ball. Since there was no catch, you are no more than 50 feet down the line, in the library (in foul ground), and you are heading home. You are not at the plate waiting for the catch -- you are at the same place you'd be on a base hit with R1 -- in the library waiting to see if there's a runner and a ball coming to third. If not, you get no closer to third and stay in foul ground.

By tag play, I mean the runner tagged, not a tag with the glove, BTW.

If we worked together and you came up on that, we'd likely have a double call cause once I signal "no catch" I know my plate guy is home and I'm taking any plate at any base.

You are not AT THIRD. The proper voice is: "I've got third if he tags." Go to the library and wait.

Once the ball is caught and there's a runner and throw, THEN it's "I've got third! I've got third!" as you bust into fair ground into the cutout.

Once the ball drops, your place is at the plate in case R2 tries to score on the base hit.

All of this is pretty basic 2-man stuff, really.

The real problem here is the deviation from proscribed mechanics, whether pro or CCA. The reason there are standards is so that you know what is expected of you when it is expected. Once in a while, if you feel the need to help your partner with one of his responsibilities (according to mechanics manuals) then please make sure that you communicate this with him, and dont expect your responsibilities to be adjusted just because you take on additional duties.

If you are working with me and the ball drops on this play, you may yell that you are staying at 3rd, but I'm yelling back, no,no,no thats mine, you got the plate and I would slide over to make the call at third if necessary.

I agree that is what the book says...
I disagree its the best way to cover this play. (and you are free to disagree with me)
I have enough intelligence to in the context of a proper pre-game adjust the mechanics to better cover the play.

If there is no play at third then I'm still able to move to cover the play at the plate, and if there is a play at 3rd then I'm able to cover there. I can move both directions from your library. And in any case I've alleviated R2 from my partner. Especially since he has R1 who may or may not have been trying to tag and BR who has probably rounded the bag by now too.

Now if we ever worked together in a pregame you told me you wanted 3rd in that case, thats fine, its yours. It is after all by the book.

When my partner doesn't show up until after the first pitch, I go by the book - no pregame.

If my partner does not have the ability to ammend the book's mechanics then I go by the book.

What I am saying is in the context of a proper pre-game, this is how we ammend the mechanics to cover this play.

I've never had a double call at 3rd on a play like this. In fact only once have I ever had a problem. When my partner was BU and wanted to do it by the book, so in pregame we agreed everything by the book. Fly ball to center everyone tagging, ball hit the center fielder's glove and landed half a step in front of him he fired to 3rd. By the book BU's call, only he didn't get it. He looked at me with that puppy-dog-just-relieved-himself-on-your-pool-table-look. So I bailed him out. That play in our local discussion group is why almost all of us ammend our mechanics.

Could you imagine the s**thouse situation we would of had if I decided to deviate from the mechanics we discussed during the pregame and made a force out call at 3B on catch. Situations like this are the exact reason a thorough pre-game is necessary. In this situation, no verbal or signal for a catch, I stay in the library. Brush up on your mechanics and discuss situations such as this during pregame.

So let me get this straight. You didn't cover this and you are telling me to cover it. I guess I should learn from your mistake apparently. And, it apparently wasn't a force play so why weren't you at 3B if he tagged up? And, maybe it wasn't a trouble play b/c the book does say no need to signal on an obvious catch. Hmmmmmmm... You are coming at me when you were the one who didn't cover 3B on a play.

Wonder why I have never had a "double" call at 3B and my partners have never wondered if I was covering a play? Maybe it is b/c I communicate with them even if they don't with me.

Just be aware that if you are being evaluated, you will be dinged big time for deviating from the prescribed mechanics. The folks that wrote them have been doing this a lot longer than we have. And if you aspire to move up I would suggest you stick with the manuals........ Just a recommendation...

Personally, I don't care about evaluations. I don't have people watching me work around here and I know more than the people they'd get anyway.

I care more when a plate guy has happy feet and feels like he needs to help in places where it's not called for. There's absolutely no need for the PU in this situation once the ball drops. The play is a force play and the umpire is in the working area behind the mound and can adjust and get an angle on a throw to any base. If the throw is bad and forces a tag, it's another step and a lean and a great angle.

However, if the ball drops and F7 kicks it and R2 goes to the plate, now the PU, instead of being at the point of the plate (where he'd be if he went home the second the ball hit the ground) -- now he has to scramble back in fair ground and make a call on the run. Or if the ball gets through F5 towards DBT we have zero umpires that can take the ball to the DBT line, which is fine if it's necessary. Here, it's not.

If a ding would be in order, it would be labeled "false hustle."

Okay, I disagree and here is why:

This is the problem. You use one set of mechanics, confuse your partner, he tries using it with a different partner. Pretty soon, you have too many different ways of doing what should be STANDARDIZED throughout the baseball world.

The best way to cover the play is the way the mechanics say, and that is to go to the library, read the book, go home if it is not a catch/tag/advance. This is the only time PU has 3rd on this play. He needs to retreat home on a base hit, whether a clean hit or a trapped ball, whatever. This is the best coverage on this play. The only time the PU should have to bust as$ home from the cutout is on an overthrow at 3rd after a tag from R2 at second. Otherwise, the PU shouldn't be anywhere in the vicinity.

Amen on that one.

My biggest pet peeve while I'm the BU is to have the PU come up the 3rd base line when he isn't supposed to. Like on a naked triple, and I'm chugging into 3rd, look up and see the PU flying up the line about to enter the cut. That frosts my poptarts, I tell ya! Here I'm busting my butt from A all the way around, well ahead of the runner, and here this guy is assuming I can't run or something. I make sure to give them a look that shoots daggers, then talk to them about it later.

Yes, false hustle is exactly what it is. Just like it is false hustle for the PU to run all the way up the 1st base line past the 45ft. line on a ground ball with no runners on. Instead of coming to a set position as the throw approaches F3, the false hustler continues running toward first base to give the appearance that he's a real jackrabbit. All the coaches oooh and aaah about how he hustles, but he isn't set to see the play he's running up there to watch. I see it all too often, especially from the young "fit and trim" umpires trying to show off their speed.

I'll have to agree with this. Go figure. I agree with Steve on something. :cool: Even though I think the PU is in a very good position when he comes up for the play at 3B, it will cause less confusion. I don't see it as "false hustle" b/c it is covering as many bases as possible with only 2 guys.

However, it does remain consistent and until they change it to how I think this type of play should be handled, then I will remain with the book and even then, I would be with the book. And, I am assuming this is a generic way to just cover all plays instead of trying to pick and choose when a deviation is needed.

The main problem with your OP is this

No one knows what is going on. If the BU gave no signal it appears he has NO CLUE along with the Players and YOU on what's going on.

Each of us has our OWN responsibilities out there.

As both TEE and Rich pointed out with R1/R2 the PU covers third base on the tag UP UNLESS it's a CLEAR CUT Single which from the OP it was not.

Here is what has me puzzled

You say APPARENTLY BU Ruled. What's that! Either we have a catch or no catch. We do not have a MAYBE.

Based upon the STRICT wording of your OP it appears NOTHING was called because of your phrase APPARENTLY BU ruled. Therefore, EXACTLY what happened on this play? Was a call on the catch / no catch EVER made?

If R1 was doubled off with an apparent no call on the catch / no catch where was the OM because surely he is going to get tossed.

IMO, once we KNOW what happened then perhaps your question about what to do can be answered more effectively.

Pete Booth

I'm am standing on the dirt a top the hill of dirt you have dug up. A trouble ball caught or uncaught requires a signal of catch or no catch. All involved, umpires, runners and coaches base their actions upon whether the ball was caught or not.

Then, if you are unsure of what to do, you can do 2 things. Go with calling "I've got 3rd!" and stick with it. Or, stand back and let your partner have all calls. For me, if there is a question, I would rather be at 3B than to have my BU looking at me like "What is your call?" If you tell him you are there and everyone hears you, then the blame goes on him for not listening. If you stay at HP and say nothing, then you look like the fool. At least yell at him "Staying Home! Staying Home!" If you at least communicate what you are doing, then the blame can be shifted to your partner for not doing something which is his job and he is the one who looks bad.

But, if you just stand there and look like a "deer in the headlights", you look bad. Communicate something to him whether "I've got 3rd!" or "Staying Home!" Either way looks better than just wondering "What is my BU going to do?"

And, you still didn't pregame the part about if umpire makes no call. Shame on you since you want to accuse me of not covering this in pregame. At least I know how to communicate everything of what I am doing.

Pete,

No signal was ever made on catch no catch. The runners, defense and base coaches did not know what to do. The only call which was ever made was the base umpire calling R1 out at first. This is why I say "apparently" caught the ball. The OM showed incredible restraint for a Senior Legion manager (heck a LL OM would be ticked off).

Matt

Don't hold your breath.:)

The dirt mound I stand a top gets bigger. Are you kidding a pregame discussion about umpires not making the calls they are supposed to make. The purpose of the pregame is for both umpires to get on the same page regarding responsibilities. I believe the BU covered this when he said, "I will have all fly balls inside the V when I am in B or C."

Boy, do you miss scarcasm. No, you don't pregame the "umpire makes no call". Geez. Now, I know to be straight forward with you. Anything else is a waste.

No doubt. Maybe if I get on the committee. Hmmmmmm... Who do I have to bribe for that one?

Yes, whether you follow the prescribed, accepted mechanic for the play, or choose to cover third anyway, let your partner know! If I see the ball fall in (I know the OP BU didn't indicate one or the other), I know that the BU is going to have the force play at 3rd, so I begin my retreat with a right-foot drop step, while hollering "I'm going home, John" (if it is indeed John :)) twice, so he knows for sure he's got the call. But, if he is an experienced member of the association, he already knows I'm going home, and knows he has 3rd, because we don't invent new mechanics.:cool:

Well, I'll plead guilty on this one. I really think coming set is overrated.

I make calls on the run in football and basketball all the time and I'll frequently run "through the catch" when I'm out in the outfield. I'll frequently run until the play is completed at first and continue on through a U-turn back to the plate. But I'm not doing it to show false hustle. I'd just rather keep moving.

[QUOTE]I hope you had a POST game with your partner and TOLD him NEXT time signal something.

It's one thing if it's a 'can of corn" or the ball clearly dropped. It's quite another on a Troubled ball

Pete Booth

On 99% of the routine plays at first, this is okay, and as you say, you are just making a U-turn. But if you, as the PU, see that it's going to be a real nut-cutter at first, don't you think you would see the play better from the "standing set" position than running with your head bobbing up and down?

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;609668]Pete,

After the game I asked the BU about the call. He said, "In my mind it was a catch!" I explained the confusion the lack of a call caused for all involved and he asked, "Did you think he caught it?" I wished him a good night and checked my list of future assignments and partners.

I can only venture a guess that he was not sure whether the ball was caught or not, figured it was to call nothing and let F8's throw to 1B dictate whether it was a catch or not in his mind.
Matt

Too many studies have shown the effect that body motion has on visual perception and accuracy. Just because other sporst don't allow the luxury of coming set doesn't mean it should be downplayed or discarded.

One doesn't need to come to hands on knees set, but one should at least come to a standing set (motionless) at the time of play. Even on DP's one should be at a standing set for the play and them move while signalling the call at second and then come set again for the play at first.

I agree. I have tried (especially in basketball) to be set or stationary more often, especially as lead, on drives to the hoop and other plays where there's a lot going on. I find it helps me see what's going on.

Football is another story, though it's often possible to get set as a pass comes down.

I agree, when I'm making a call or when I read a bad throw in the infield or a trouble ball in the outfield. But if it's a can of corn or a true throw? I'm not needed anyway, why stop?

Thamk you Pete for putting the thread back on point.

[quote=njdevs00cup;609674]If he is going to let the players dictate the game, what is the need for him to be out there as an umpire?

There are times we look to players for additional information (HBP, foul in the box, rolling catch/no catch) but we make a decision and then make a call!