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-   -   Why not another? 9U play (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/53589-why-not-another-9u-play.html)

cc6 Sat Jun 13, 2009 01:06pm
Mr. Umpire told me that I am acting like a coach on an umpire board. I will attempt an objective perspective, which is hard to do after all the inflammatory postings made in the OP's direction.

One of the coach's jobs is to win games using good sportsmanship.

The main debate is whether jwwashburn was breaking the rules of good sportsmanship when he tried to decieve the umpire.

Let's list some terms that we associate with sportsmanship, and discuss whether the attempt to decieve violated any of them.

SAump Sat Jun 13, 2009 01:57pm
Too late
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cc6 (Post 608671)
Mr. Umpire told me that I am acting like a coach on an umpire board. I will attempt an objective perspective, which is hard to do after all the inflammatory postings made in the OP's direction.

One of the coach's jobs is to win games using good sportsmanship.

The main debate is whether jwwashburn was breaking the rules of good sportsmanship when he tried to decieve the umpire.

Let's list some terms that we associate with sportsmanship, and discuss whether the attempt to decieve violated any of them.
I don't need to read any more negative comments about poor cell phone McGee. If you have any dignity left for Mr McGoo, why choose to continue to "dump on the young ump" and bring it here for the "umpteenth" time. All this could have been averted had the "coach" taught the little boy to run to the next base. There were some good comments provided by J Paco and others. But those comments have been "drowned out" trying to keep the rat in his box.

In summary 1) Rats have no business talking to the umpire after the game ends to clarify anything.
2) Rats have no business talking to the umpire between innings of a game to clarify anything. In short, the rat should have left the field without exchanging words with the umpire. He got away with some more cheese.
3) The only reason we discuss the proper or improper behavior of rats is to keep our cheese.

DonInKansas Sat Jun 13, 2009 03:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump (Post 608674)
and bring it here for the "umpteenth" time.
HA! Umpteenth........

jwwashburn Sat Jun 13, 2009 03:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GA Umpire (Post 608664)
A person's integrity and integrity of the game are 2 totally different things.

Integrity of the game is calling the game within the rules. If the umpire blows the call, he has not ruined the integrity of the game. He just missed it. And, a judgment call does not change just b/c the umpire may think he blew the judgment. If there is a rule misapplied(as in your play), then the judgment call can be changed such as first baseman's foot comes off the bag. All of that still upholds the integrity of the game b/c it is part of the game and rules.

A player/coach informing the umpire of what the correct call is shows integrity of the person. Doesn't mean the call will change. It just means the person has morals and integrity. And, that goes a long way. Just like when an umpire knows a coach/player is a "rat". He does not get the benefit of the doubt at that point b/c he will do/say anything to get an advantage.

I'm not saying you have to do that by no means. All I am saying is don't question why others attack you when you pull "rat" tactics and come on here to brag about them. Do what you want. If you get busted, well, then you deserve the treatment you get such as close plays not going your way. Or, your fellow coaches giving you he!! as an umpire b/c they already know the levels you will stoop to. That is all I am saying.
Again, to clarify...a player/coach is a rat unless he corrects favorable calls in his favor. An umpire is not a rat if he rules against a team on close plays for the sole reason that he deems the coach to be a rat.

Also, an umpire has no responsibility to correct an incorrect judgment call(even if he realizes he kicked it)...the team who benefitted from that call should try and get it corrected in order to show integrity...and of course, if they do not...they are all rats.

In other words, umpires start out with the understanding that they are good, honest folks. Players/coaches are bad unless they take extraordinary efforts to help umpires correct calls that were ruled in their favor...but only calls in their favor. We really want them to keep their yaps shut if we screw them with a bad call.

DonInKansas Sat Jun 13, 2009 04:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwwashburn (Post 608687)
We really want them to keep their yaps shut
Stop right there. You have just described Utopia.

jwwashburn Sat Jun 13, 2009 04:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltjp (Post 608666)
And this sends what message to the player? :rolleyes:
I do not let my players argue with the umpire when they screw up a call against us, why in the world would I let them argue with the umpire who screwed up in our favor?

I will say this is new to me...I have never heard in my 15+ years of umpiring anyone espouse such a ridiculous standard for players. I have worked with who knows how many umpires with hundreds of years of experience and I have never heard this kind of idiocy from any of them. I have contacted at least fifteen good friends whom I have umpired with for years and each one of them them thought I was joking or could not even fathom that umpires actually would say a player lacked integrity for not trying to get a call reversed that went in his favor. I wonder what a poll would show here....

I would hope that most people who even disagree with my actions in the OP(which, by the way, I have many times said it would have been better if I had not said it) would not favor the lunacy of a player/coach trying to get an umpire to rule against him. I have been around sports all of my life in many different parts of the country...I have never heard this before.

jwwashburn Sat Jun 13, 2009 04:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump (Post 608674)
I don't need to read any more negative comments about poor cell phone McGee. If you have any dignity left for Mr McGoo, why choose to continue to "dump on the young ump" and bring it here for the "umpteenth" time. All this could have been averted had the "coach" taught the little boy to run to the next base.
The "young ump" is an adult who took a job that he was not qualified to do. He made no effort to do said job properly.

Incredible that you would say: "all this could have been averted....If the coach." The UMPIRE blew the incredibly easy call. He might have been the only person there that did not know that the kid was supposed to be out. Think about that...even the 9 year old players knew that this moron got the call wrong....even the grandmothers knew it. But, it is allllll the coach's fault.

Which is easier...teaching a 9 yr old to get to the base when he is crying or an adult umpire to call him out when he is tagged way off the base. Ohhh, poor Cell Phone McGhee had never seen a play like before.....the coach should have helped him....Booo hoooo!!!

The 9 yr old runner had never been beaned by a thrown ball while running before, either.

cc6 Sat Jun 13, 2009 05:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump (Post 608674)
I don't need to read any more negative comments about poor cell phone McGee. If you have any dignity left for Mr McGoo, why choose to continue to "dump on the young ump" and bring it here for the "umpteenth" time. All this could have been averted had the "coach" taught the little boy to run to the next base. There were some good comments provided by J Paco and others. But those comments have been "drowned out" trying to keep the rat in his box.

In summary 1) Rats have no business talking to the umpire after the game ends to clarify anything.
2) Rats have no business talking to the umpire between innings of a game to clarify anything. In short, the rat should have left the field without exchanging words with the umpire. He got away with some more cheese.
3) The only reason we discuss the proper or improper behavior of rats is to keep our cheese.
Another inflammatory post. All these shots are taken at jwwashburn, yet my post to LMan saying it was addition by subtraction when he left the board a couple years ago gets deleted!?!?! Where is the fairness and consistency in what posts get deleted and which ones don't? The irony of it all is that JM, a former baseball coach, started this massive pile on.

spokanelurker Sat Jun 13, 2009 05:36pm
Again, wow!
 
Seriously, SAump? You take that attitude onto the field and think that you can officiate with integrity. Keep telling yourself that!

SAump Sat Jun 13, 2009 05:45pm
Ripleys' Beleive or Not Museum
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwwashburn (Post 608692)
1The "young ump" is an adult who took a job that he was not qualified to do. 2He made no effort to do said job properly.

Incredible that you would say: "all this could have been averted....If the coach." 3The UMPIRE blew the incredibly easy call. 4He might have been the only person there that did not know that the kid was supposed to be out. Think about that...5even the 9 year old players knew that this moron got the call wrong....6even the grandmothers knew it. But, it is allllll the coach's fault.
Guess you didn't understand my message. It would be easier to agree that yes, the young umpire did err. I would not go any further than that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwwashburn (Post 608692)
Which is easier...teaching a 9 yr old to get to the base when he is crying or an adult umpire to call him out when he is tagged way off the base. Ohhh, poor Cell Phone McGhee had never seen a play like before.....the coach should have helped him....Booo hoooo!!!

The 9 yr old runner had never been beaned by a thrown ball while running before, either.
So you had a dumb ump, possibly two. It would have been easier to educate both umpires. Remember your team's objective to legally score that run. As you continue to suggest, this would have been impossible for you to do in front of your players, fans and the other team. Incredible that you would say all this again. But knowing that, telling little Johnny not to stop until he reached the next base safely would not be very hard at all.

SethPDX Sat Jun 13, 2009 07:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwwashburn (Post 608661)
Any player that says, "No, I did not catch it" is a moron and also benched.
That ties for...well, you know... ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump (Post 608674)
I don't need to read any more negative comments about poor cell phone McGee. If you have any dignity left for Mr McGoo, why choose to continue to "dump on the young ump" and bring it here for the "umpteenth" time.
I got tired of the comments a long time ago as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cc6 (Post 608696)
Another inflammatory post. All these shots are taken at jwwashburn, yet my post to LMan saying it was addition by subtraction when he left the board a couple years ago gets deleted!?!?! Where is the fairness and consistency in what posts get deleted and which ones don't? The irony of it all is that JM, a former baseball coach, started this massive pile on.
I don't see the irony at all. JM may have been a coach but it sounds like he's now a solid umpire.

MrUmpire Sat Jun 13, 2009 08:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cc6 (Post 608671)
Mr. Umpire told me that I am acting like a coach on an umpire board. I will attempt an objective perspective, which is hard to do after all the inflammatory postings made in the OP's direction.

Perhaps you missed the central theme of my PM.

You, along with jw may occasionally wear an umpire's uniform and call games. You may even go to umpire meetings and umpire clinics. But when a critical event occurs, you both immediately think and react like rats. Your first impulse is not that of an umpires, but that of coach.

We are not naive. We know coaches lie. We're just amazed that they can lie and then say they didn't. Even more amazing is, like jw has stated, coaches will punish a player for telling the truth. Wow.

My point to you, my young Canadian friend, is that when you claim to be an umpire, but throw your lot in with coaches, act like a coach, think like a coach, respond like a coach and defend a lying coach who would punish a player for telling the truth, all on an umpire board, you have no right to be surprised or even offended when you are treated accordlingly.

When I first came to this site someone used to say there is a difference between an umpire who coaches and a coach who umpires. I believe you and jw have shown that to be true.

MrUmpire Sat Jun 13, 2009 08:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by spokanelurker (Post 608698)
Seriously, SAump? You take that attitude onto the field and think that you can officiate with integrity. Keep telling yourself that!
You need a new moniker. You have long stopped lurking.

But, let's talk integrity. What do you think about a coach who punished young players for telling the truth?

What should parents think about that?

bob jenkins Sat Jun 13, 2009 08:23pm
I think this has gone on long enough.


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