I saw it out of the corener of my eye.
 

I am coaching my son's 9-u team in a tournament. They can leave the base when the pitcher lets go of the ball.

We have a coach that has also coached girl's Fastpitch and the leadoff is the same. He taught ofur guys a good technique and they get a good push off of the base. Opposing coaches usually don't like this.

Any wayyyyyyy, Friday night we stole 2nd base twice in the first inning even though they had a catcher with a pretty good arm. The defensive coach yells: Are ya gonna let them leave early all night?

The next kid stole and the Home Plate Umpire called time(by the way, the signal for time is: mask in right hand and left fist with the arm at a 90 degree angle...to think I have been putting both hands over my head all of these years) he says: "The runner must go back to first, he left too early...this is your only warning!" I replied: "Mr. Umpire, how are you watching that from back there?" Him: I saw it out of the corner of my eye! I looked at him and said-I am not joking: "I cannot wait to see what San Diego Steve says about this play. He looked at me quite oddly.

Joe In Missouri

If you have two-man mechanics, I am gonna let the BU have this call all the way. If I am alone, I can watch for the runner leaving early FROM THE CORNER OF MY EYE. We do it all the time, in many circumstances. But they have to leave REALLY early to get that call, because "from the corner of my eye" gives me only an idea they left early and not total certainty. That's why they have to really be abusing it before I call it alone.....

San Diego Steve sez:

If I'm working alone, and that call is my responsibiliy, the runner would have to leave mighty early, like 3 or 4 steps, before I would consider calling that. Why would the umpire be looking at anything but the pitcher. I was always taught to let the ball take your eyes where they need to be, so I'm focused on the baseball, and what Shifty McCheat is doing with that ball on the mound. If I see the runner take off with my peripheral vision, then great. Otherwise, I ain't lookin' for it.

I agree with Steve from San Diego. It's got to be a gross infraction before I'm calling it. "Coach, you want that call? - pay for a second umpire."

I forgot to mention that there was a guy out in the field during the game that was not on our team and did not appear to be on the other team either. He was older than nine and players are not supposed to use cell phones on the field, are they? Maybe he was the base umpire?

I called it twice last week in a game I did solo. Once at first and once at second. It's not that hard to do.

Well Joe , its not only obvious that you have no respect for a fellow official but in a 9 and under tourament, your also setting a poor example of how the kids shouldnt have any respect for them either. And then the gall to come on this site and brag about it.

Way to go Joe, your the man.....?

What rule set allows runners to leave the bag when the pitcher releases the ball?

jicecone: I guess I should have been a little more clear. I went and talked to the Home Plate Umpire and he is the only person that heard me because I was talking only to him. We have a very strict rule with our team about messing with umpires. They are not to question their calls or even make a face at them.

Do I have any respect for a guy that wore an umpire uniform, had no idea what he was doing and lied to me about a call? No, I do not. Do I have any respect for his wandering moron partner with the cell phone on the field? No, I do not.

However, I treated them with the respect that they had not earned. I did not yell at the moron. I calmly talked to him. When he lied to me, I made the smart alleck remark about San Diego Steve and walked away.

Joe in Missouri

Especially when you do not bother yourself with watching the pitch.

How in the world can you watch the pitcher and the runner on first base at the same time from your position behind home plate?

Unless the infraction was remarkably early, there is no way you can see it.

Joe

Different associations call it different things...but, it what I have seen for most 9u tournaments and leagues. Why they do not use the Little League rule, I do not know. I think Little League allows the runner to leave once the ball is hit or gets to Home Plate?

I'll tell you what Joe, it really isn't that hard to do. I'm guessing you've never umpired a game from behind the dish before. That's okay, but please understand we've got a heck of a view from back there.

Plus, 9 year olds aren't really dealing too hard. So seeing the base runners is quite easy. My criteria for leaving early(LL) is even harder than yours, so the umpire in your game had it easy.

One tip: don't ever use the "Mr. Umpire" for addressing us, as you'll sound like one of your tot players. Use our first name, and get it at the plate meeting. We're much more responsive to first names, as opposed to "Blue". Although I've become quite fond of "Your Honor".

I don't see that it would be that difficult to check (pay attention to your peripheral vision) the runner when F1 is about 1/2 way through the wind-up and still get back to see the pitch from a 9-year old. I agree that the benefit of the doubt goes to the runner.

I'll tell ya what, Kyle. You, of course, have guessed way wrong. I have umpired more games than i care to remember behind the plate in baseball. I watch the ball so that I can call balls and strikes. If a runner left WAY early, I would probably notice. I have also umpired many hundreds of Fastpitch Softball games behind the plate and guess what? I watch the pitcher, there as well.

Well, he should have had it easy because it was not even his call. He had a "partner" in the field(of course that guy was even than him.)

I had to instigate the pre-game meeting or it never would have happened. I did not catch his name even though I introduced myself to him, I figured Mr. Umpire was a good substitute. I have never once on a field been offended by being called Mr. Umpire.

Furthermore, my runner did not leave early. From my vantage point in coaching first base, I actually can see the ball and the runner. The kid right before the one that he called actually did leave early by a hair.

Joe in Missouri

OOOOORRRRRR, try this for size.

Don't say anything about the call and after the game speak to the umpires and tell them about your vast experience and diplomatically see if you could help ,what was obviously two inexperienced officials. They may not be receptive to your advice but at least you tried. Hey maybe some day they will pursue this officiating thing and be your partner. What are you going to do then? Every chance I ever had to teach other officials something, I took advantage of. And yes there are some ole geisers (like me) that are STILL learning.

Remember, we are expected to be perfect our very first game and get better from there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have a nice day :)

I was actually taking the advice of many people here to address it during the game and never, EVER do it after. I do not expect umpires at this level to be perfect or even mediocre. I do expect them to have some knowledge of some basic rules(the ball is live if it hits a runner) I do expect them not to lie to me.

Joe in Missouri

I've never seen a 2-man crew at 9U. Must be a pretty wealthy association!

Our league is in Chesterfield, MO...Somehow, they let me park my 1994 Camry there:p

The three tournaments we have played in have all had two person crews, as well.

Joe

One league I work in the summer uses two man for all games, even 6U. It is run by the city and they use it as a youth work program. Most of the umpires in 8U and 6U are high school kids and the game fees are pretty low. They also use high school kids as scorekeepers. Not sure if they get government funds or not.

I was free one night last week and worked a couple of 6U games with one of the kids. I hope it was helpful to him. He said he had not played much ball and it showed. His mechanics were pretty good, but his rules knowledge needed some work. He did not know a batted ball could hit foul and roll fair. He did not know a batted ball could be in the upper corner of the batter's box and still be fair. He thought a batted ball that hit the plate was automatically foul.

Good for you for learning.

There are at least four more likely explanations as to the disagreement than the umpire lying to you. In no particular order:

1. He had the rule wrong.

2. You had the rule wrong.

3. He had the timing of the runner's jump wrong.

4. You had the timing of the runner's jump wrong.

The thing that scares me about your recent run-ins with umpires is that you are quick to assume some sort of malice on their part, as if there is an underhanded reason that they don't call what you think they should be calling.

There are at least four more likely explanations as to the disagreement than the umpire lying to you. In no particular order:

1. He had the rule wrong.

No, he knew the rule. You cannot leave until the pitcher releases.

2. You had the rule wrong.

Nope.

3. He had the timing of the runner's jump wrong.

Since you cannot see the runner and the pitcher's hand from behind the plate there is no way for him to have the timing at all.

4. You had the timing of the runner's jump wrong.

My runner actually did not get a very good jump at all. There is no way in the world he left early. It was not even close.

The thing that scares me about your recent run-ins with umpires is that you are quick to assume some sort of malice on their part, as if there is an underhanded reason that they don't call what you think they should be calling.

Gee whilikers, I am so sorry to have scared you. I assumed no malice on the behalf of the this knucklehead. He made the call because the opposing coach intimidated him. He had no malice, he had to lie to me because he made a call for which he had no explanation.

All I can tell you is that I clearly saw two runners leave before the ball reached the batter last week(LL rules). For me, they were easy calls to make, and didn't effect my ability to call balls and strikes.

I don't know what happened at your game, I wasn't there. But trust me, I can make that call.

Your example is even worse. You are watching something other than the ball while the pitch is on the way to the plate.

How in the world does this not mess with your balls and strikes? Do you dust off the plate while a pitch is on the way, as well. There is not any sort of umpire training that I have ever heard of that would have the Home Plate Umpire looking at something like this. You are calling the pitches, you need to follow the ball.

Joe in Missouri

Bottom line is that you don't know what the umpire saw, so you cannot say he is lying to you.

He is the umpire and if he said he left early, then he left early. We as coaches and parents just have to live with it.

We all make mistakes, sounds like he might have made one, but you can't just make accusations for things you don't know.

I used to call small ball, and you can easily see runners at 1st or 2nd if they leave early. Now R3 that's too hard, but easy for R1 or R2.

Thanks
David

You know what else the PU should do during the pitch? He should check the left fielder's glove to make sure it is not oversized...

When you're working the plate in a gmae involving older kids, do you not know when R1 (or R2 or R3) is stealing, while the ball is still on the way to the plate? Wouldn't this be the same type of call?

That's the point I was trying to make. I agree totally. You have to watch R3for a squeeze, you have to watch R2 for obstruction ....

Maybe i've just done this too long, but you can't have tunnel vision and be a good umpire. Now a newbie I can understand, but if you're not watching the game, you're going to miss something sooner or later.

Thansk
David

How do you explain catchers seeing runners go, as the pitch is coming in? Look, it's really not that hard, at least for me.

Hey, maybe it is just me, because I've been tested out as having pretty remarkable peripheral vision. Now Joe, a lot of us are telling you that we can see runners move, and still track pitches. The more this goes on, the further you are in the minority on not being able to see this. Maybe, just maybe, it's not us.

Sure, I know if a runner is stealing. But, I would have no way of knowing if he left the base before the pitcher released. It is physically impossible to see the pitcher's hand and the runner's foot at 1B at the same time and the PU that is trying to do it would will miss a lot of pitches.

Serious softball umpires would be busting a gut at this discussion. The rule for this is the same. They would never dream of trying to call a runner leaving early from behind the plate-ESPECIALLY one at first.

Kyle, of course you can see the runner move. What you cannot do is see the ball leave the pitcher's hand and the runner's foot leave the base. There is no way. You would have to look at two places at the same time.

In FP Softball(same rule there-cannot leave the base before the pitcher releases) the well coached runner is in motion long before she leaves the base.

All (or most) of us have agreed that the benefit of the doubt goes to the runner. But if the runner moves enough to have taken 2 steps, it's pretty clear that he wasn't on the base at the time he was required to still be on the base.

And, frankly, if I think a team is trying to "cheat" the system, I'm more likley to look more closely at a play or two, and give up soemthing on the pitch.

Bob,

There was a Base Umpire. As the PU, even if a runner left so early that I would have somehow seen it while doing my job I am still not going to call it. Like I said before, I have done many hundreds of FP Softball games and never have I called a runner for leaving early from the PU position and if I had, I might have gotten punched in the nose by my partner. It is almost never that a runner leaves way early. it is a very close call nearly every time. That is another reason that there is no chance that the PU can call it.

If the PU wants to make everyone know that he thinks his partner sucks, he will call a runner leaving too early. Does he wants to make sure everyone knows he sucks, also? Then, like in the OP, he will call it only after the Defensive Coach grouses and be dead wrong about it.

Joe

Don't assume others can't do something just because you can't.

Vision skills can be learned. Seek some advice on drills you can do.

We have now entered the twilight zone.

Can you see the runner leaving from behind the plate as the pitcher is releasing the baseball. I doubt it. Go try it sometime.

And Kyle...in your games, the runner can't leave until the pitch crosses home plate. Well, duh, that's a whole lot easier to see a runner leaving early. Trying to see it while watching the pitcher release the baseball is foolhardy. Your attention can't be split, and sorry Rich, the human eye does not have the same range as a fly or a lizard. You cannot look directly forward and 90° to the right simultaneously.

And besides, Joe said there was a base umpire!!! That is his call. Why would the plate umpire interject where he doesn't belong? That should be the whole point here: Why didn't the base umpire do his job to begin with, so Joe would not have to argue with the lying PU who said that his runner left early when according to Joe, whose opinion I trust more than the clown behind the plate, he did not.

My $0.02
 

This might just be fuel on the fire, but from behind the plate the angle to 1B would be a little less the 45°. I agree you cannot split your vision 50/50 on this, but it does allow you to see the movement with your peripheral vision well. But truly getting back to the point, with 2-men this is the BU's call all the way, unless a runner at 2B which might be the PU's depending on 60'/90'. With 1-man do your best to see the movement, which is what is picked up best with peripheral.

Yes, you are correct with the angle, and yes, you can detect some movement. But can you accurately call the leaving early while still focusing on the ball that is being released? That is why I said earlier that I'm not calling that from the plate unless the runner is blatantly off the base, as in 3 or 4 steps, where it is obvious. In this case however, Joe said that he was in a position to see both the pitcher and the runner in his direct line of vision, and that the runner actually got a late jump from 1st base, well after the pitcher released the ball. So my big concern is that the PU made the call to "make up" for the ones that the BU (who must be a real dandy umpire...probably playing pocket pool with his Johnson out there) had missed.

Sorry. I thought we were discussing whether a PU had the ability to make this call.

I didn't realize we were (still) discussing whether a particular umpire in your particular game made a correct call.

11.02(g)

Thanks Bob for a very clear post. That's exactly the philosophy that I've seen used and it works very well for me also.

Thanks
David

I will be glad to discuss either. It is impossible for the PU to make this call accurately. You cannot see the runner's foot and the pitcher's hand at the same time unless you are him: http://nuncscio.com/wp-content/uploa...kiemonster.JPG and he would have a hard time because I do not think he can actually focus those things....they kinda go wherever.

1) it's less than 45 degrees

2) Catcher's can see the movement and still catch the pitch.

3) All those fancy "no-look" passes you see in basketball are because the players CAN see the movement (and the uniform color) in their peripheral vision.

4) Running backs make all those fancy cuts because they can see the peripheral activity.

But you need to learn how to do it.

Rich, it is not movement that you have to see to make this call. It is the foot of the baserunner leaving the base before the ball leaves the pitcher's hand. You cannot do it, you never have done it, you never will do it and nobody else can, has or will, either.

Even the proper mechanics makes this a difficult call for the BU. it is very rare for the runner to leave early by a lot.

I probably called 10 girls leave early as BU in about 40 FP games I did on the bases last summer-mostly competitive tournaments. I had about the same number called by my partners when I was PU in about 50 games. I did not see one of them leave early when I was PU.

Hey that's kinda funny: I was refereeing basketball last night, standing behind the endline, and one team passed the ball to me 3 times. Never happened to me before.

As long as people keep telling me they can see Wichita while standing on the beach in California facing the Pacific Ocean, I will tell them they cannot.

You can if you're East of Wichita.

I edited it to make it more precise.

When was the last time you umpired 180+ games a year for 20 years? I can see just what I can see, and that is an approximate time that the runner took off. Fortunately, I have never had to umpire a game where runners couldn't leave until the ball is pitched. Sounds like some kind of cockamamy softball thing.:rolleyes:

Yeah, catchers can see movement and catch a pitch, but can they tell with certainty that the runner left before the ball left the hand? NO, they cannot. And neither can an umpire who is focused on the baseball. The catcher does not have to determine the precise time that the runner's foot leaves the base. The umpire does, and then has to have some a-hole get in his face about it when he makes the wrong decision. The catcher gets to go take off his gear and sit down after his team gets 3 outs.

I played and reffed hoops, and yeah, on no-look passes you know where the player is and can detect his presence, but you don't know exactly which board of the court he is standing on, do you? Peripheral vision is just that...peripheral. It's not recommended to be watching the movement at first base while the pitcher is releasing a ball that gets to the plate in a hurry.

the horse isn't dead until these people stop saying that they can accurately call this from behind the plate with absolute certainty.

Is it just me or does his left hand appear to be a part of the bat?

THAT is your best post to date.

Indeed. :)



Put me in the "no chance camp". Ball leaving hand and foot leaving 1B at the same time... no chance. Not even with 60' bases.

I don't suppose there's a "stopped caring about 20 posts ago" camp, is there?