Fair/Foul Two Man Crew Situation (From a Dad)
 

You guys are my bible for all things "official." I'm a proud dad who apprecitates the men in blue, and I want to make sure I know what I'm talking about when something comes up. Here's the scenario tonight; I would appreciate any feedback and please forgive any butchered terminology:

My son's Junior Division Little League team (FED rules I think) playing horribly but hanging in 3-0 to first place team with a two man crew. Lead off batter hits shot down the line, PU signals audibly "foul" while the BU is pointing fair. Ball was untouched as it went down the line and past first base. All players kept playing the ball as fair. BR ends up on third. Umpires confer and BR is sent back home and "foul ball" stands.

From what I've read, the PU has the call until the ball passes first base, then the BU has the call. I didn't hear the explantion the umpire gave the coach, but does his "foul" call kill the play even if it wasn't his call to make? The defense did not react to the foul call, nor did the runner. Our team is out of the playoff hunt, but is this something our manager could/should have protested?

To be fair, I must admit that I didn't agree with several call the umpires made all game, but I know those were judgement calls and that's how games go sometimes.

Many Thanks in advance!

BU has fair/foul from the bag and beyond. PU stepped on BU's call, but once he called it foul, it was irreversible. Not protestable either.

Get used to that. We see what we want to see, which is why scientific research must be done with double blind controls, peer review, etc.

The only unbiased observers routinely at your son's ballgames are the umpires.

This is the correct mechanic on a proper field. In actuality, most fields in small ball do not have foul poles or lines extending very far past the bases. When we encounter fields of this caliber, the plate umpire will take all fair/foul calls. This should always be discussed in the umpires pre-game meeting so that what happened in your son's game doesn’t happen.

Happens all the time. What's so sad is that these type of plays can be so easily eliminated if umpires would just talk about things like this before the game begins.

But, most of our summer league umpires simply show up, put on the gear, and walk out on the field to call the games without ever discussing anything about baseball.

I feel your pain, my son is playing 11-12 year ball right now and it's pretty bad. Last night we had a balk call that got the winning run in - umpire said the F1 had to step back to throw to third (from the set position)

We questioned it, but to no avail. Just have to keep on playing.

Thanks
David

Thanks for the feedback; we kept on playing, but even worse than before. Error after error and we lose 6-0. Can we protest the play of our own team?

Do any of you guys engage in discussion/explanation with (rational) parents after a game if asked to clarify? Or is this a cardinal no-no? I know "rational parent" is somewhat oxymoronic.

Rules questions, yes. Judgment questions, no. It also depends how the parent approaches: "May I ask you a question about the rules?" is generally non-threatening.

Should have protested.

Did you show him the rule after the game?

In my scenario, would you consider that judgement or rules? Again, in this particular game the outcome would not have changed; I guess part of me just wants to hear the guy say, "Yeah, I blew it." (Of course I don't like saying that, but it's not about me!:)

Actually, your question has more to do with mechanics. Again, your approach to this type of question might determine whether you get an answer. "Can I ask what happened on that foul ball call in the 7th inning?" might get a more informative answer than "So are you guys going to admit that you screwed up?"

Then, listen. Don't argue. If you have one follow-up question, you can ask that. Thank them for their time. There's no point in arguing with them.

Ordinarily I would not discuss a controversial situation with a fan until I'd had a chance to discuss it privately with my partner first.

Yea, our league doesn't allow protests, but I did show him the rule.

He apologized, but plainly he did not know much about balks at all.

Sad thing is that he knows I'm an umpire also, so he should have known something was wrong.

I blame PU also because he could have called time, walked out and talked with BU and correct this, he either didn't know the rule also or just was too weak to go there.

Oh well, I did ask him to tell my F1 that he had missed the call so the kid will realize we had coached him correctly. Said he would.

Thanks
DAvid

Hey, I love your user name! I'm a huge fan of Blue Öyster Cult, and that's the only thing (Don't Fear) The Reaper needs more of!!!:cool:

And yet, you've never commented on my signature. :(

IMHO this is not Japan where the umpires apologize to the teams and crowd. I think you as the coach(or if you are not the coach you could have told the coach of your conversation), should have explained to your player that you had talked to the umpire and that the umpire had told you that they missed the call, and that the team has been coached properly. If the player does not believe his own coach without hearing the words from the umpire directly, something is wrong in the coach/player relationship, especially when trust is not there.

To have the ump come over to the kid after privately telling the coach, is just rubbing salt in the wound and is just like showing up the umpire. A mistake was made and privately admitted to you the coach (or team representative) and an umpire yourself. The umpire now knows for next time which is exactly the outcome desired. Time to move on. Once again IMHO.

I've booted this one before. Watched a ball draw chalk down the line, brain said safe, yet somehow I found my arms up and "FOUL" coming out of my mouth. The OC comes down the line and must have seen the sheepish look on my face because all he asked me was "you know why I'm here, right?" I replied with "Yeah I know, but once it's called foul, it's foul forever."

Fortunately it was summer ball and not JUCO league play or he'd have probably watched the rest from the parking lot after letting me know about my ineptitude a lot more forcefully.:p

I apologize profusely for not noticing it before. I'll meet you at the Four Winds Bar and buy you, Miss Carrie nurse and Susie dear a drink.

Yeah More Cowbell has taken on a life of its own. I've lurked here for some time, and I find your posts, SD Steve, quite interesting. I guess I'm "Anaheim Johnny" to your SDS.

Thanks to all for the input and anecdotes. Keep on educating the uninformed masses. MC

Welcome aboard, Johnny!

My 2006 BRD, section 488, says in OBR, the umpire may reverse their foul call if everyone concerned ignored his initial signal.

And in NCAA, an erroneous foul call can be reversed either if done so immediately and no player reacted to the foul call or if erroneous call had no impact on the obvious outcome of a safe hit.

Under Fed rules, once foul, foul forever, except on home runs over the fence.

Could someone confirm that the current BRD says the same thing?

I can confirm that none of the 3 rule sets has changed on this point since 2006. :rolleyes:

Well played. ;)

I will add that NCAA made an rules change to Appendix E on this issue this year.

I don't mind talking to rational parents with rational questions after a game. They will typically tell others and greater understanding is achieved.

If they are coming at me with a complaint I will give them a direct look in the eye and not speak, and keep walking.

Especially if they've got a full cooler with them and are sharing.:D:D

No coach should ever do this or any parent. Only fellow umpires that this umpire KNOWS is an umpire. Otherwise, go to the UIC and let him know so he can explain the rule to the umpire if the umpire is willing to listen to anyone.

Do not approach the umpire with a rule book b/c nothing good may come of it.

Why not? I can see not doing that during the game, of course, but what is wrong with approaching someone who kicked the living sh*t out of a rule in the game in a nice manner to enlighten them of the rules after the game? Of course you wouldn't do it beligerently and you have to use a bit of tact, but you shouldn't leave that umpire ignorant of a rule so he can go out and ruin the next game he works.

I hear people talk of the "UIC," which sounds like a LL term of which I am pretty unfamiliar. Out here we work in associations, and have no "UIC" to go run and tell. If you don't straighten the umpire out right there on the spot, he is liable to never know that he has misapplied a rule.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I don't know. Maybe this is why. http://forum.officiating.com/basebal...e-handled.html I think this conversation has been gone through before and nothing good came from it as you can see.

UIC, assignor, or whatever you want to call them. They are the ones to inform so they can inform their umpires. Do not approach an umpire with a rule book in hand even if the game is over. Nothing good may come of it. And, instead of testing to see if this may be the exception, handle it the same way every time and nothing like what happened in the other thread will happen.

Leave to the umpire's assignor(or whoever is in charge) to inform them. Not just some Joe Blow off the street who the umpire has no clue about. B/c that person may not have any clue of what they are talking about. And, like it or not, even if the game is over, approaching the umpire with a rule book is trying to show him up. Only difference now is he can't kick your a$$ out of the game and send you home packing. That is just cowardice at best. Leave it to a Rat(and this applies to anyone trying this same tactic whether it is a parent/player/coach/umpire) to do that.

When I was coaching I showed an umpire the rule only once. We were playing a team whose coach was not one of my favorites and his son was pitching. My son broke up a no-hitter in the 5th, but was called out for not reporting, after the other coach complained. I discussed what I thought teh correct rulling should be with the PU and he said "show me". I guess he did not think I had a rule book. After I showed he reversed the out and allowed the hit. The other coach said he would protest. I told him good, go ahead. It cost $50 to lodge a protest in the league and if not upheld the $50 went to the league. I would not have shown the rule book if he had not asked me to.

He asked to be shown b/c he didn't know the rule and, apparently, knew he didn't know the rule. If the umpire admits to not knowing it or, in your case, thinks he is being a smarta$$, then that is on him. But, if the umpire does not ask for it, then no one should be offering it before, during, or after the game.

Well, first off, I'm no Joe Blow off the street, I am a well-known and long-time respected umpire, and when I give advice to rooks who don't know hay from horse manure, they usually thank me for setting them straight. I don't know as much about umpiring as my assignor, since he has about 60 years of umpiring experience to my 20+, but I'll wager I know at least as much as the majority of assignors out there. I wasn't talking about some yokel off the street, I was talking about a brother umpire clueing in a misguided arbiter.

Secondly, if a coach approaches in a manner that is not confrontational, he could perhaps suggest that the umpire missed a rule, then ask the umpire to pull out his rule book just to double check. I would welcome such a challenge from a coach. I've never had one that knew a rule and I didn't. Lucky I guess.

Georgia on My Mind
 

I see you have experience with this type of circus. Each side spouting off particular events as they see fit. Each side making up a version of reality to support their desired position. Neither side listening to the other.

Best to let it go on or to avoid it at all costs? I hear what your saying.

To me, you are some Joe Blow. And, as I said, if the umpire doesn't know you are an umpire, then leave them alone. The last thing any umpire wants to hear is "I have been umpiring X years" b/c Rats will try anything.

Second, Rats will try not to be confrontational until they don't get their way. All do it, even the pros. So, none of this means a thing. Just look at how the one acted in the other thread. He started nice until he didn't get his way.

It's funny how so many will jump on a Rat they don't know is an umpire. But, let one of the supposed umpires pull the same thing as a Rat, and so many on this forum will agree. That is amazing to me. I wonder if those like that are that inconsistent on the field. Possibly. Hmmm. Flip flop on this forum, I wonder if they flip flop on the field with their calls. Hmmmm. :confused:

From experience, No. But, from others and as you can how the one in the other thread was, then you can see why it should not be done.

But, if you want to allow it, then go ahead. But, when it blows up in your face and causes a bigger problem than just stopping it in the beginning, then oh well.

My suggestion is for those who are not known to be an umpire to that umpire, should not try to bother the umpire after the game is over. The game is over so let it go. If they want results, go to the umpire's assignor(or whatever the person is called in your area), and let them deal with it. It will be less confrontational and probably get better results. Not let it go on but do it in a more professional, courteous manner(and this applies to umpires especially). Better results come from that approach. A Rat trying to do it in the heat of the moment may not get any results expected.

And this differs from what I said how? Didn't I say to approach the umpire in a professional manner? What if I am the assignor? I have worked closely with my assignor and have assigned games with my assignor on a bi-weekly basis for many years. Does this qualify me? I have been asked for my input as to what level I thought a certain umpire should be working. Is this close enough? I have been assigned to evaluate umpires BY my assignor. He has asked me to go see how so-and-so works, and I've also been assigned with certain umpires to evaluate them as well. And if one of those umpires gets a rule wrong, and I catch the error, I am going to say something about it so it doesn't happen again.

You're missing the point. The point you keep bringing up is the umpires KNOW you. If you approached me, I do NOT KNOW you. That is the difference.

If you approach me, I don't know you are an umpire until I have called on the field with you or I see you on the field umpiring. That is the difference between Rat Joe Blow coming to the umpire or his fellow umpire or assignor which the umpire KNOWS. See the difference?

A Rat(which applies to anyone approaching the umpire which he doesn't know is an umpire/assignor) should not be trying to do anything before/during/after the game. Get outside of your little area and think of the bigger picture. If the umpire does NOT KNOW you, then you shouldn't be approaching them after the game. Tell the one who he does know and let them approach him. Or, suffer the same treatment as the "supposed" umpire in the other thread. Those umpires didn't know he umpires and treated him as such. That is the risk a Rat takes.

Do it courteously and professionally by informing the umpire if he KNOWS you're an umpire or if he does NOT KNOW you're an umpire, let his assignor take care of it after they have been informed.

If you look closely at the bolded type, you will see that I told you I was well-known. This means that the other umpires in my association know who I am. When we attend meetings (sometimes weekly, but normally bi-weekly), everybody gets to know everyone else. I wouldn't go up to someone I had never met and start telling them anything, but on the other hand, I don't have a problem with someone coming to me after a game in a respectful manner. It's all in how you approach someone.

Forget it. You missed the point of the other posts and how the other thread went from non-confrontational to confrontational in no time. Forget it. The points are lost on you.

They are not lost on me, trust me. I just have a very different opinion than yours. Or am I supposed to just nod my head and agree with everything you say?

No. But, you keep relating this to the umpires YOU KNOW. There may be a time when you will encounter an umpire you don't know. And, I suspect you will not approach him the same way you would approach one you do know. Either you won't approach him at all or you will walk on pins and needles while trying to address anything of the job he did during the game.

I doubt you would approach him as an umpire who knows what he is talking about b/c he may just tell you to get lost. Just like the ones in the other thread did. They didn't know him and he tried to come off as someone who knew they were wrong. So, they basically told him where he can go. And, nothing good came of it.

That is all I am saying. Rats(coaches/players/parent/umpires who this umpire does NOT know) should not approach the umpire before/during/after the game with a rule book or acting as someone who knows that umpire is wrong before/after the game. If something was wrong, let their assignor/UIC know and handle the situation. Not someone else who has no business being involved in that umpire's game. If you are filling in for the assignor or something, then you have business to be involved in that game. If not, then you don't. That is all I am saying and this would apply more to umpires not in your association and to coaches/parents/players.

I also believe I had just got done telling you this, which said that I wouldn't go to someone I didn't know, but that I didn't have a problem with someone approaching me (fan, coach, parent, etc.) in a respectful manner. So, I agree that an umpire should not approach an umpire that he does not know.