Can the Ball Change Possession during a Dead Ball?
 

I imagine this will be an easy question. It kind of goes back to the hidden ball trick.

I know that the hidden ball trick can not work after a dead ball. However, I was also pretty sure that it was an infraction for the ball to change possession from the pitcher to another fielder under time-out or dead ball. But, after scanning through my NFHS playbook, I don't see anything regarding that and I haven't found anything online. Now, I'm not sure where I picked that up. I was pretty sure that I had read that in baseball rules at some point.

So, is there any rule that says that the ball can not change possession or be transferred to a different defensive player under time-out?

Time is out on a foul ball. If F3 picks it up, can he throw it back to the pitcher? Yes? Hmmmmmmmmm.

Clarification & a possible answer
 

I am not really sure what you mean by a change of possession. In baseball, unlike every other sport, ONLY the defense can have possession of the ball. I think what you are referring to is the pitcher throwing the ball to another play while the ball is dead. He can do this if he wants to, but the ball can be live again (MMMWAHAAAA!) until it is secured by the pitcher while he is engaging the rubber.

Yeah, I just mean can the ball be transferred to a different defensive player under time-out? Ump153 makes a good point, and I'm not seeing anything, now, that would indicate that this kind of transfer CAN'T occur. I was just SURE that I had read somewhere that it wasn't allowed. So, I thought I'd at least ask the question, even if it was stupid, just to see if I could figure out where it came from.

If the ball is dead (or better phrased, we have "Time"), then simply have the fielder get the ball back to the pitcher...as previously stated, nothing can happen until the batter is in the batter's box, the pitcher has engaged the rubber, and PU says "Play."

And the catcher is in his box.......;)

Nope, no such rule. This isn't even one of the top 40 baseball rules myths.

Please do us all a favor? If you ever find the person that told you this, give him a slap in the back of the head and keep slapping him until he understands that this is not a rule!

which way is the possession arrow pointing?

So its kind of like "kissing your sister."

There the fielder stands with a baseball in their hand or glove and it does'nt mean anything because, the ball is not made live until you transfer possesion back to the pitcher so we can get on with the game.

correct...once you call time, we don't resume play until the pitcher has the ball and engages the rubber, if he engages w/o the ball, we have a balk.

The Evans Diamond Challenge DVD has the hidden ball trick example in the DVD...it's a good example too.

I am not sure on the balk call.
 

There has been a discussion brewing on another forum regarding this call. The consensus seems to be that this is a no-play, not a balk. Specifically, UIC cannot legally place the ball back in play until the pitcher has possession and engages. And with out the ball being in play no balk call can be made. No one has an advantage or a dis-advantage (no out made, no steal made). What say you?

johnny,

C'mon. How do you have a balk if the ball is not in play? (Answer: you don't!)

If he engages the rubber without the ball while the ball is dead all you've got is a dead ball - still.

JM

~sigh~
 

johnnyg08:

Please refer to UmpJM and Ump Rube as they are correct.

It is nuttin' honey.

There can only be a change of possession during a live ball and the defense must have "clean hands" prior to the CoP. If there is a foul by team A prior to the CoP and a foul by team B after, team B may decline the penalty and keep the ball.


:D

So this COULD possibly result in a 30 yard gain but, only if your live ball become dead, correct.

I think you're missing the "resuming play" portion of my post. When we "resume" play, we have a balk...if the pitcher represents that the ball is in his glove, he is on or astride the rubber, umpire points the ball back in play, the ball is not in the pitcher's glove or hand, I'm pretty sure that's not legal.

Johnny, if the pitcher does not have possession of the ball, you cannot legally make the ball live. If he toes the rubber without the ball and the umpire declares "Play!", only to find out the ball is somewhere else, the ball was not made live legally so it is still dead.

You are correct something is not legal. Only problem is that putting the ball in play is what is not legal at this point...

All criteria have to be met for the ball to live again.

got it...thanks welpe, rube, and tim c

Actually, that would be a balk in FED wouldn't it? ...I think ORB, as well.

Nope. You can't have a balk on a dead ball. You can't make the ball live unless the pitcher has the ball. Therefore, this cannot be a balk.

Hmmm,
 

It seems we cover this each year. Since we do it must be a confusing situation.

I believe that many recognize that it is a balk to do something that simulates a pitch . . . HOWEVER . . . after "Time" has been called or the ball has gone to dead ball territory an umpire cannot put the ball in play until the pitcher has the ball in hand, has contacted the pitcher's plate, the batter is in the box (and some will comment on the catcher's in his area) and all is ready for the direction "PLAY".

If an umpire, in error, puts the ball in play without the pitcher having the ball in his possession it is simple a "do over". There is no balk.

Uh, its right here in MY rool book. Right under the

Hands are part of the bat rool.


I am having trouble finding the possession arrow rool.

Really? I didn't find it even remotely like kissing your sister!:confused:

Tim, Thanks....I think I remember the last time you set me straight on this. The key here is that even if the Umpire accidentally tries to put the ball in play without the pitcher having it, he can't.

I am trying to remember if I have ever done that...I did have a balk last year when F3 pretended to throw it back to F1 and then F1 toed the rubber as if to pitch.

The coach requested time. I granted it. He came over and said, "What kind of balk was that?" I explained. Then, he said, "I have never seen that one but, you sure as hell didn't make it up!"....turned around and told F3 "Quit screwing around...that's a balk!"

Joe In Missouri

I made the same mistake. I read the title and thought it was a football thread.

Hey! Leave my sister out of this and by the way, she still hasn't received last months alimony check. We need to pay the internet bill.

If they try the hidden ball trick after/during a DB, and I put the ball in play (b/c I'm assuming F1 has the ball), then I'm going to warn Skip and his pitcher that if they try that stunt again, they're both gone.

Might be over the top, but you've just tried to pull the wool over my eyes, and I don't roll like that.

How are you gonna justify that one?

A bit over the top. Only worthy of an eye roll, a "nice try there, Skippy," and not much more. I don't see how you can throw them out for trying to fool you...they do it all the time constantly throughout the game.

Since this is a "football" thread...unsportsman like conduct.

ManInBlue,

If you "put the ball in play" when the pitcher doesn't have the ball, you should be upset with yourself, not them.

JM

actually, while I was looking up the "no throwing the ball back to the pitcher after a homerun" on the same page of PBUC I saw the "no putting the ball back in play until the pitcher has the ball and..."

But I'll bet you couldn't find anything on not throwing the ball back to the pitcher after a homerun, right?

actually I did. would you like me to post it? or do you trust me that it's in there?

I trust you. What I would like you to post is the reason for this edict. What purpose does it serve?

I don't know...I asked the question earlier in another thread. There's no case plays, no rationale, it's included in the "putting the ball in play" section. I'm wondering if others have thoughts on it...I can't think of why they'd bother putting something like that in PBUC w/o something happening that they had to put it in there.