Balk question

[Jake80]

I need some help interpretting a possible balk situation. OBR rules.
Pitcher engages the rubber from the set position. Before he goes into his stretch, is he allowed to step to a base and throw to that base. Coach is adamant that he must come to the set position before he throws to a base. Looking at rule 8.01 the pitcher must go from the stretch to set "without interuption and in one continuous motion". 8.01 also states that "anytime during his preliminary motion and before he is commits to pitch he may step and throw to a base". Your thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Tim C]

There is NO rule that requires F1 to pause (stop, etc.) before going to a base. The coach, as amazing at it may seem, is simply wrong.

The stop (pause) is only for when a pitcher delivers a pitch.

[chiefblue86]

I agree 100% with Tim. The coach is wrong (as usual---grin). The key phrase (Jake) is 8.01(c), which you quoted: ". . . anytime during his preliminary motion and before . . ." A bit of advice: if you ever have any questions about rules, ask an umpire first. He may not always be exactly correct---but he'll usually be MORE correct than any coach---only because it's the umpire's job to know the rules, not the coach's.

[teeare]

I guess I'm just a bit confused. I thought the 'Set Position' followed the stretch. "Before assuming Set Position, the pitcher may elect to make any natural preliminary motion such as that known as the "Stretch." ' (8.01b). If this is true, then this question does really mean the Set Position? I would guess that this question refers to the pitcher in contact with the rubber before the stretch, which I believe is not yet in the Set Position. And, yes, I agree that the pitcher can step and throw to a base from this position. (Is this then the Windup Position?)

[chiefblue86]

Teare, First of all, yes, the Set Position does in fact follow the Stretch position. I think Jake80 just got it backwards in explaining it. That is, you're right, he said the pitcher engaged the rubber in his "Set Position" then asks the question "Before he goes into his stretch." So, to get the sequence proper here, it goes like this:
1) Pitcher steps onto the rubber and as such is in his "Stretch" position.
2) He must now come "Set" before deliving his pitch.

Okay, we got that. Now the facts: The pitcher MUST come to the "Set" postion before he can deliever a pitch. He DOES NOT have to come "Set" in order to throw to any base. And the ONLY base he MUST throw to while in contact of the rubber ("Sretch or Set") is 1st base. Therefore, to answer Jake's orginal question, yes, the pitcher---while in the "stretch" ---or while in the process of "moving into" his "Set" position---may throw over to 1st. That is, the pitcher DOES NOT have to come "Set" before doing so.

And, teeare, the answer to your question---"Is this the Windup Position?" The answer is, no, it isn't. The Windup Position requires the pitcher to have both feet on the rubber and facing the batter directly---OR he must have his pivot foot on the rubber with his other foot behind the rubber (and, technically, NOT off to the side, though umpires have been a bit lenient about that). In either case, in the Windup Position, the pitcher must be facing the batter directly. And once he starts his motion---any motion at all, which includes simply raising his arms---he MUST deliver the pitch. That is, he can't raise his arms in the Windup Position, then step back off the rubber. This is most definitely a balk. This has been tried by many pitchers to deceive a runner. And they get upset when they are called for a balk. They're reasoning is that "just moving" their arms does not constitute a movement that implies they are going to pitch. That's baloney. (The only exception to "movement" here is when the pitcher moves his pitching arm into the glove to grip the ball. That is, he may have had his pitching arm dangling at his side. Therefore, he is allowed to reach into his glove to the glove withouth this being considered a "pitching motion").

Ultimately, that's why there is a "Stretch" position, because it allows the pitcher a bit more flexibility. That is, if a pitcher is in the stretch and starts his motion to come "set," he can still step back off the rubber, or turn and fire to a base---while moving, so long as he does so BEFORE he actually comes "Set."

(Isn't this fun!?---grin)

[teeare]

Thanks, ChiefBlue, for the clarification. I think what I'm reading here is this: The pitcher is in the 'stretch' position. He begins his movement to the set position. At any time during this movement he may step and throw to a base. Am I correct so far? If so, then please explain the line in the rulebook that states 'from this position he shall go to his set position as defined in Rule 8.01 (b) without interruption and in one continuous motion.' I read that as saying that once a pitcher begins his stretch, he must come set before throwing the ball anywhere (without interruption)...obviously that's not the case.

Yes, this is fun...until you're in a game situation!!

[chiefblue86]

Teeare, be careful with making statements like "I read this as saying . . ." (grin). Here's why. While it IS true that the pitcher must go from the "stretch" to the "set" in one continuous motion (assuming, of course, he is in fact going to go "all the way"), it DOES NOT SAY that the pitcher must come "set" before throwing to a base. (Yeah, that may be a "weak" argument. But, again, don't read things into the rule that aren't there). The particular wording you are referring to indicates that the pitcher can't "jerk, stop, hesitate" or do some other "hokey-pokey movements" prior to coming "set."

So, WHERE does it say that the pitcher may throw to a base while in the "stretch" or while he's "moving into the set from the stretch?" Well, it doesn't, at least not explicitly in this particular rule. You must also go to the Balk section of the rulebook to see what is and isn't "legal." (This is one of the complaints I have about the rulebook. Associated information is sometimes too spread out. Still, the advantage of that is it kind of forces umpires to read THE WHOLE BOOK to find out all the rules---grin). Casebooks are also a "must" for the serious umpire.

So, the best I can do for you at the moment is quote something from a casebook I have (which was used at an officially sponsored umpire training facility in Florida. Here goes:

"It is a balk if a pitcher --- starts, stops, or hesitates

1. hesitates in or interrupts his motion to join hands, pitch, throw, or disengage.

However, it is not a balk if a pitcher who has begun his motion (from the "stretch") to join hands shifts in a fluid and continuous motion to throw to a base or to disengage the rubber. Also, an umpire must recognize the difference between the motion to join hands and other neutral movements that are irrelevant to the joining of hands; e.g., a pitcher rotates his glove to signal the catcher for another group of signs, or a hunched-over pitcher straightens his body when the catcher requests time."

At this point, this is the best we can do. When trying to figure all this out and when dealing with balks, keep the definition of a Balk in mind: Any act by a pitcher to deceive a runner. And if a runner knows that a pitcher can "twirl" to throw to a base (say, 1st) while in the "Stretch," or while "coming to" the "set," then if the pitcher does throw to a base, he certainly is NOT deceiving the runner. Catch my drift? Anway . . . Does this help?

[teeare]

Thanks again, ChiefBlue! That last reply answered all my questions, and I think it really clarified for me what is or isn't a balk. I certainly appreciate the responses!

[Bfair]

Originally posted by chiefblue86

Teeare, be careful with making statements like "I read this as saying . . ." (grin). Here's why. While it IS true that the pitcher must go from the "stretch" to the "set" in one continuous motion (assuming, of course, he is in fact going to go "all the way"), it DOES NOT SAY that the pitcher must come "set" before throwing to a base. (Yeah, that may be a "weak" argument. But, again, don't read things into the rule that aren't there). The particular wording you are referring to indicates that the pitcher can't "jerk, stop, hesitate" or do some other "hokey-pokey movements" prior to coming "set."

So, Chief, do you want to tell us the legitimacy of the Luis Tiant stretch?

Do you think his stretching motion was per the rule,
or was he just guilty of imitating Joe Cocker pretending to pitch?


Just making it more difficult,

Freix

[chiefblue86]

Bfair (griiiiiiiiiiin. It's like speeding. You only have to pay the consequences if you get caught---or accused).