Hole in outfield fence at the base of the fence.
 

Boys' H.S. varsity, NFHS Rules; I am the BU.


Top of fifth inning, Home-4, Visitor-0. Lead off batter hits a line shot into the left-center gap that goes all the way to the outfield fence. I have the B/R all of the way. Just as B/R rounds second and starts toward third, F8 raises his hands and the PU calls (loud enough for the players near home plate could hear) out "TIME" (I did not hear the PU nor did I see F8 raise his hands because I was concentrating on the B/R); THEN F8 picks up the ball and the fun begins. V's HC (was coaching from the third base coaching box) yells to his B/R to keep running, which he does all the way around third base(yes, he did touch third base) and onto home plate, and then into the dugout.

We ruled that the instant the PU called "time" everything stops. We put the B/R on second base and resumed play with the next batter up to bat.

To be honest, I cannot remember the last time I had a ball get stuck under an outfield fence, in fact, I do not think I have ever had it happen to me. It is my thinking that F8's raising his hand does not stop play and that we should have let B/R complete his running (touching third and home plate), and then "time" should have been called and BU go out to the fence and make a ruling. If the ball is truely out of play then the B/R can be put back on second base, and if the ball is not out of play then the defensive team is out of luck. If we didn't allow the play to continue, the defense would raise their hands to force the umpires to call time and then beforced to award only two bases from the TOP.

MTD, Sr.

We do not call time until the ball is seen out of play or until an umpire goes out and verifies it is out of play. It's live, the runners run, and if the ball is laying there, the defense is out of luck.

During plate meeting after the Home HC takes us around the field, if there is any mention of something being less than tight all the way around, I tell both coaches if a ball becomes stuck or under any fence or gate, for the fielder to hold up both arms, let it lay, and we will check it out. If they play it, the offense gets all they can.

YMMV, but it usually does the trick.

We have one coach who likes to go into this long discussion about a tarp laying up against the fence. He always says "if your players play it, the ball will stay live." One day when I saw the coach, I brought up the tarp and mentioned that it's the status of the ball that determines whether it's out or not. If I see the ball disappear into the tarp, I'm killing it whether the player is digging or not. Now, if I can't make a determination and the player gets it out without me seeing it lodged, yes, I will keep it live, but that's different.

From the time the F8 threw his hands up the BR and all runners should continue running. BU goes out and checks status of ball. If found to be lodged or out of play, runners return. If ball is found to be in play OR reachable (dependant on MATP) runners get what they can. If fielder throws up hands and continues digging, continue out but allow runners to continue. I have actually had an F7 do this in a game on a field that had shrubery on fence. While hussling out there, I saw him try and stuff the ball back into the shrubs.

I am going to take some blame here even though I was the BU in the OP. Normally, whether I am the PU or the BU, when this type of situation is discussed at the pre-game meeting I always remind the coaches to tell their players to raise their hands and to not touch the ball until an umpire goes out and inspects the situation because if they pick up the ball we will consider it still in play, and last night I just forgot to inject my two cents of information into the pre-game meeting.

MTD, Sr.

I'm curious as to why you put the runner on second base. The fielder duped the umpires into killing the ball when it should have remained live. The OP said the runner was rounding second and heading for third when time was called. I think it would be appropriate to award the runner the bases he would have attained, in the umpires judgement, if time had not been called. No way I'm letting the defense gain an advantage in this scenario.

IF the umpires were duped, then I agree (under FED rules and the CS&FP handbook). IT's not clear to me whether the umpires decided they were duped or that the ball had gone out of play and was then retrieved.

Because PU killed (and kicked) it when he called time. Unless you want to rely on 9.01(c), the rules don't support a 3-base (or more) award.

Dash: FED rules permit umpires to rectify their own errors that put one team at a disadvantage.

Under OBR, I'd have PU eat his time call and tell the O-coach why his runner has to return to 2B.

FED rules have the "correct a situation where a team was disadvataged when an umpire's decision was reversed" rule.

Not much you can do here, F8 fooled the umpire. I agree with the placement of the BR on 2nd base as the umpire was fooled into calling TIME with the assumption of the ball going out of play. Hope the umpire learned a lesson here!

I'm not sure what MATP means, so it might change my answer, but I disagree with "reachable" (bolding mine):

8-3-3c: two bases if a fair batted or thrown ball becomes dead because of bouncing over or passing through a fence...

Baserunning Awards Table - Two Bases - 1: Fa¡r batted ball bounces over, through, goes under, lodges ¡n or under fence

Amazingly, I can't find a Case Play for a ball rolling through a fence.

8-3-3c does not apply here because the ball never passed under or through or over a fence. I am thinking if we can use judgement as to where to place a runner if spectator interference occurs, why couldn't we award bases for a fielder successfully duping the umpires? Could this be a legitimate use of 9.01(c)?

Bob:

We don't think we were duped. The Home-AD told me after the game, that the player raised his hands because the ball went through a hole at the base of the fence thinking that by raising his hands he was telling the umpires that the ball was out of play. He then reached through the ball to retreive the ball thinking that the ball was dead, which we know that while it is dead, it really isn't dead until the BU goes out and inspects the situation. I honestly do not think the player was trying to dupe anybody. We, as an unpiring crew, screwed the pooch on this play.

MTD, Sr.

It's dead as soon as it goes through the fence. The umpire uses all information available (seeing the ball; seeing the players) to make that decision.

If you weren't duped, then the correct call is a book-rule double.

If were told during the plate conference that there are spots in the outfield that would allow a ball to pass through or under a fence we make a point of telling the managers that the outfielder should raise his hand so the base ump can go out and check. We also tell the managers that the runners should keep running - we'll reset them if the ball is indeed, out of play. Our final statement is that if the fielder reaches for the ball after raising his hand we're going to judge that the ball is still in play.

And that's all correct mechanics. But that's not in dispute.

I believe that the question in the OP was: what do you do when an umpire (improperly) yells "TIME" after the player reaches through the fence and picks up the ball?

Bob has mentioned the FED rule about "fixing" situations where an umpire's reversed call puts a team at a disadvantage. I am not sure, however, that we can apply that principle here: it's not possible to reverse a call of "TIME." The OP is different from the casebook play where R1 steals, PU calls ball 4 on a check swing, R1 slows down and is tagged, then BU overrules and calls the batter out on strikes. That's a clear case of a reversed call putting one team at a disadvantage.

I was originally in favor of this ruling, but Bob reminded us of the proper phrasing of the relevant principle. Now I think we have to match the OBR ruling: the umpire screwed up by calling "TIME," but that made the ball dead, and runners cannot advance on a dead ball. Runner back to 2B, umpire open wide.

The ball is either in play or out of play and that really has nothing to do with whether someone is trying to play it. If I see it go out of play from 300 feet away I don't care if the kid reaches or not, it's out. If I *can't* tell, then we need to get a better look and once I see it out of play or in play I'm going to rule accordingly.

Rich, what do you rule when the OF raises his hand to indicate that the ball is out of play and you can't see the ball? As you start out he bends down an picks up the ball and throws it in. In doing so his body shielded you from seeing where the ball was.

All you have now is an OF claiming the ball was out of play but you have no visual evidence to verify that.

Meanwhile, the BR slowed while heading for second base when he saw the OF's arm go up. The BR is eventually thrown out at the plate, or is safe.

Depending on the call one of the managers is coming out to plead his case.

tough...the coaches need to coach their players to round the bases...you make the call, not the outfielders.

Bob:

The point I am trying to make is that we as the umpires never had a chance to rule as to whether the ball was out or not because the player, after raising his hands, apparently reached through the hole in the fence and retrieved the ball. Kids do the darndest things.

MTD, Sr.

That's the offense's fault. Defensive players try to deke the offense all the time -- and, dpeending on the specific rules set and the specific actions, it's legal.

On the OP, if I didn't see the ball OOP, then I'll assume it was just a deke -- and shame on me (or my crew) for calling time.

That's exactly my point. Keep the runners running and if it looks like the defense is playing the ball before I get to check on its status I'm considering it still in play.

Part II
 

Well, ladies and "germs" "IT" happened again last night. MTD, Jr. and I were umpiring a boys' 14U travel league (with MTD, Jr. behind the plate naturally, you don't think I am going to work the plate with a young stud like Jr. I can stick behind the plate do you? :D)

Top of the 4th inning and the V's are up 7 to 1 with 2 outs and runners on 1st and 3rd. V's batter hits a blast (into the wind to boot) that clears the fence by at least 10 ft in the left field power alley. H's F7 and F8 run to the fence and watch and can do nothing but watch the ball go over the fence. F7 turns to the infield and signals HR at the same time that MTD, Jr. is signalling a HR.

Now for the good part. F8 then turns toward the infield and calls out that the ball went through a hole in the fence. :eek: I call "time" and hustle (if you believed that I hustled, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you) out to the fence. Sure enough there is a hole in the fence along the ground, and the ball is lying on the ground outside the fence about 20 ft past the fence line. I look at F8 and asked him if he really thought a baseball that was hit that high coul roll through hole that far past the fence line. He looked at me and said the ball had some serious spin. :D I told him that HR stands and turned to the infield and signaled HR.

After the inning was over H's HC told MTD, Jr. that his F7 told him that the ball was way over the fence and thought that F8 was nuts trying to say the ball rolled through the fence.

MTD, Sr.

I'm confused. Why wasn't the HR your call?

Because, the sky was overcast and I lost the ball against the background of the clouds and looked to Mark for help. This ball was a towering blast for a player in this age group. I saw the ball go off the bat then lost it against the background of the clouds. I am getting old and am blind in one eye and can't see out of the other.

MTD, Sr.

We had a situation last night that was a 3rd strike foul tip off of the catcher's glove, then the ball hit the ground, now foul ball. I was BU, PU was blocked. Here's a situation of a player seeing/thinking something that wasn't...after the ball tipped off of his glove I watched for it to hit the ground, at the time I saw it hit the ground, I called "foul ball." FED catcher was adament that he caught the ball and he probably believes that he still did. He did not. My point...we have to continue to go with what we see and stick to it because as somebody else posted in a different thread..we're the only neutral people at the game...people see what they want to see. From time to time, we'll have to eat one because somebody really did see it differently and maybe we were wrong...but we have to call what we see. Mark's homerun call is very similar. Cognitive Dissonance?

it's best in most situations to simply let the play keep going. You can always send them back. I had a sitch where a shot up the 3rd base line, took a hop, looked like it hit the 3B's shin in fair territory and bounced foul before 3rd base. I called it fair, play happens, whatever...after the play, i go over to my partner and ask this question: "Did you see if the ball hit the 3B?", answer: "Definitely Not!" I rule foul, we send the batter back to hit, runners go back. The runners all just got some free exercise.