How should I have handled this
 

This is long and most probably boring. I want to get it right as a coach so, here goes.......

I coach my son's u-10 team. They at a a level above rec and below travel. OBR with some house rules(none that have anything to do with OBS)

Today, we had a runner rounding third tripped up by an oafish 3rd baseman, the runner fell down and was almost thrown out scampering back to third. I looked at both umpires(about 17 to 18 yrs old) Nothing at all.

The next inning, we had the bases loaded and a kid whacked one over the center fielder's head. 1B was standing on first and 2B was standing on second...the BR had to slow WAY down to avoid a crash and touch the bases. he would have had a HR for sure but had to stop at third. I kept my mouth shut.

After the game, the two young men were changing their gear. I said: "Can I ask a question?" The PU said, sure. I said, we had two incidents during the game where our runners were obstructed. I gave a quick rundown. He said, yeah I saw both plays-that is not obstruction...it was not intentional and there was no collision. I said, actually Obstruction is usually not intentional and definitely does not require a collision. I think it would be a good idea for you to look that up in your rules book later on. The other guy gave me the hand up and yelled: This conversation is OVER! Do you understand coach? I said, Yes, I understand. Even though I am completely calm and respectful and you have absolutely no authority to tell me to shut up, I am going to do so. As I walked away, the PU yelled at me from about ten feet away, we got the freaking call right I am confident in my knowledge of the rules!

One of the other coaches is on the board of the league so, he took me over to the UIC who listened and thanked us and said he would take care of it.

I promie that I am not exaggerating or leaving anything out. This is how it happened.

Did I do anything wrong?

I have been umpiring for 15+ years and the coaching thing is new to me.

Awaiting your comments....

Joe

I'm OK with how you handled it. You tried, and then after no positive reaction you went to their supervisor. Had they been any younger than this I would have gone straight to their supervisor...

First of all, as a veteran umpire, you had every right in the world to school those two kids on umpiring, irrespective of your position as a coach in the league. Done elegantly, it's a benefit to the younger, inexperienced umpire to have any veteran help him with his game. Secondly, if those kids popped off like that to anyone, and took that superiority thing to that extreme, they'd be gone if I had anything to do with it. They sound like the other extreme: young, yet arrogant and closed-minded. Who needs young umpires with those qualities?

OBS is extremely important at lower levels...injuries WILL happen unless the Umpire call this correctly.

I had to nip one of our moron parents in the bud(nod to Barney) because I heard him telling a couple of guys to just run over them next time.

If these knuckleheads don't call this correctly, some idiot dad WILL tell his idiot kid to hurt someone and he WILL do it.

Not necessarily.

People placed in positions of authority have an initial problem--they now have to exert that authority, but don't have the experience to know what works and what doesn't. When this happens, they default to what they have seen others in the same position do, not realizing that the noticeable actions of those others are an irrepresentative minority and that the majority of actions taken in the exertion of authority are very small and often almost invisible. In other words, they've got to skin the cat, but the messiest way is what they remember, because it sticks out.

This has been shown with cops, military personnel achieving leadership positions for the first time, and others in similar positions. Give them time and guidance--they'll probably get better.

I had a dad (former D-I first baseman) tell his son and other players stuff like that, and I have to say, "Don't tell them that; that's an illegal slide," or "You can't do that, it's obstruction." It's a joke. Plus, they're teaching kids to go after other kids. As a coach or instructor, I've had to re-train a lot of young players to run the bases legally, and make legal plays around bases when they're fielding. De-brief them is another way to put it.

I would tend to agree if these were experienced young men, or anyone with the right to carry guns. These guys are teenagers. And they are, by this account, unacceptably disrespectful of a respectful and respectable adult. They can come back and try again when they grow up and develop a sense of respect and the respectability that comes with it.

Don't forget a nod to Fred G. Sanford as well, as he would take out his bud nippers and nip it!

As far as the two yutes, I think you handled it better than I would have. I probably would have let them know in no uncertain terms that they are wet-behind-the-ears and couldn't carry my mask to the pre-game plate conference. Then I would have probably informed them that I have been umpiring since long before they were a gleam in their daddy's eye on a cold winter night. Then I probably would have asked them if they talked this way with all aduts, or was I just the lucky guy today. Then I would have talked to the UIC. Then I would have said that I don't want them ever on one of my games, and recommend disciplinary action for a couple of smart-*** kids.

I don't put up with sass from children. I would give them a "time out." I would take "time out" of my day to apply a whoopin' to their backsides:p (well, back in the day, maybe...)

I figured "Insane Hockey Dad" was one way to go. I thought better of it.

I only wish that I could be there when they read the book. Of course, they don't have one and would never dream of it.

No, they chose to exert authority in the wrong way. Age is irrelevant to this action--they could have been in their 20s or 40s, and this still very likely would have occurred, assuming the same level of inexperience.

How many times have we seen stories on here or other boards about adults trying to railroad young umpires? The age of the person doesn't matter in this situation--they were still the authority figure, and they felt that they had their authority challenged.

You are looking at it the wrong way. They are the authority figures, not the adult coach in the conversation. While there is disrespect, there is not the social norm of elder/youth interaction.

Well, Matt, age is 1000 percent relevant to this---it's everything. They are kids and kids don't talk to men that way. Period.

Matt, you are struggling to defend the behavior of two kids, whose behavior is inexcusable in any capacity they mistakenly find themselves. You're being strangely defensive of these two youts. What's the story?

You handled this fine, though I would suggest there may be a different option. Why not go out & talk to the umpire after the 1st non-call? You would have had the answer (Same as the post game conversation). Then come the magic words "I protest".

These two would have learned a real lesson when the protest was upheld: learn the rules!. The PITA of having to write the report, go to a hearing, find out they made a huge mistake (Twice) on a very basic rule + being held accountable for same would be a valuable learning process.

No, you did nothing wrong here. You had two cases of obstruction that should have been called. Your umpires should have exhibited the same enthusiasm on the field to the game as they did in the parking lot!

Here's the problem. Interference and obstruction are both calls that require recognition and judgment before the rule can be enforced. You can protest the rule if not adhered to but the call is more judgment than anything else. You will find that many younger umpires do not properly recognize obstruction (as in your two plays) and therefore can not judge that it happened. Better training would be a help but that would have to come from their UIC, not you.

Next time you are on the field and you see this happen. I would ask for TIME and approach the umpire in a professional manner. You better ask for TIME because young umpires have a fit if you don't (unlike those of us that deal with the older crowd).

You "Excuse me, (name of umpire - not 'Blue') but I think that my runner was obstructed on that play. Did you happen to see the same thing?"

The umpire is going to give you an answer (hopefully equally professional) and you are going to live with the results. You say "Thank you" and go back to your box or dugout.

When it happens again, you do the same thing. Maybe these umpires will see a light bulb illuminate and get the idea. I would also suggest that you and the UIC discuss training the umpires better over a cup of "joe" - your treat!

Do not do this. The last thing any umpire wants to hear is some coach trying to say they umpire. Coaches will try anything to get an umpire to doubt themselves even if they are 100% correct. Ever heard "I have been umpiring X years" or "I have played AAA ball" followed by "I have never heard that". So don't try this tactic, it doesn't work.

Also, do not approach umpires after the game. Many bad things come from this and hardly any good things as you found out. Do it as SoCal says. Get a ruling on the field and protest the game. You achieved absolutely nothing by trying to not be a coach in this situation. Once the game is over, leave the umpires alone or get treated this way possibly. Anything pertaining to the game should be handled on the field not in the parking lot.

As for how these kids acted, well, they are kids and you may or may not see the same attitude from your own kid. I don't think it had anything to do with more than they are kids put into an authoritative role. And, now, you just questioned their calls. Yes, they may have screwed up the call(HTBT for that) but it should have been handled on the field through the rules available to you as a coach(Protest). If they show this same attitude ON THE FIELD, then talk to the UIC. You chose to approach after the game which is a "You get what you get" situation and should not have involved the UIC except for him to make sure they don't do this same thing while on the field.

As far as the OP, some of this is just the product of u-10 baseball. There are a lot of inexperienced umpires who don't know the rules.
If you were calm as you said, there is no excuse in the way these two responded. One would hope they go check the rulebook, but more likely they are just there to pick up a part-time summer paycheck.

I wouldn't tell these youngsters that you have umpiring experience. I've been on both sides, and that won't help.
Instead, just study the book and when a play like this comes up, call time and calmly quote the rule. They still may be too immature or stubborn to change their mind, but at least they will know the correct rule for the next time.

I would respond better to, "I understand the rule to be that it doesn't need to be intentional and that a collision is not necessary. Can we both look that up so we're on the same page? Do you know where in the rule book I could find this?"

While you were right in this application of the rules, I have had the same conversation with coaches asking about, say, the hands being part of the bat. So, when a coach starts with, "Actually, ..." and finishes with "you need to look that up," I tend to get a little defensive.

No, I dont think you handled it right.

Do you like being approached after the game, while getting rid of the gear, by a coach who has a complaint or 2 about calls during the game? No matter how calm the coach is? Of course you dont, who does?- the game is over, time to move on!
As a coach, you should've addressed the OBS during the game.

Now as an older adult, if that happened to me, I probably would've told you that it didnt look like OBS at the time, but I might've missed it, thanks for the input (mainly just to end the conversation, knowing I'd check the rulebook later).......but thats part of "post" game management....

oh, and I never knew there was a level for 10 yr olds, between rec and travel ball...;)

yeah, i've been 100% right before on a couple situations, most recently, the unreported substitute, and have heard..."you need to look that up..." I reply, "I know the rule, you look it up." this was adult baseball, not kiddie ball...had I been working that level, I probably would've handled it differently.

"Umpire" being the operative word here. These are children, masquerading as umpires, thinking they know the rules when they don't, and disrespecting their elders. I would never use that on a "real" umpire. Besides, real umpires would know I'm an umpire in most cases.

First off, I don't know a "real" umpire until they have called with me or I see them on the field during a game.

Second, what makes a "real" umpire? Their age, their appearance? If anybody puts on the uniform to put up with the crap that parents, coaches, and players dish out, then they are a real umpire. They are not masquerading b/c they are putting up with someone approaching them in the parking lot to question their judgment and not doing it during the game(where it should have been handled).

When does it begin for someone to be a "real" umpire? These kids were doing their job. They may not know it very well which comes from experience. No umpire walks on the field knowing how to umpire without experience. Listening to daddy's stories of his time on the field will only go so far. Reading the rulebook will only go so far. An umpire has to start with what they know or think they know and build from there. May be wrong in the beginning, but many get better and many don't. Instead of complaining about them, teach them or deal with what you get.

Imagine being a skip in A ball and a couple of 19 - 22 yr old umpire school grads show up to work your minor league game. we can't bust their chops too much...esp in 10 year old ball...I'd be willing to bet in 10 yr old ball America, you'd find more "hands are part of the bat" umpires than you could shake a stick at. That being said, they can't get any better unless they're out there working..and them working that level, I can't think of a better place to learn the rules, mechanics, and dealing with the weird stuff that can happend in baseball...that's the level of ball where you see all the weird stuff. With a good instructor and a clinic or two under their belts, they will, at some point, maybe be our peers. Remember, nearly every one of us was "that new ump" at one point.

But I'd be willing to bet that whatever most of us were at 17 or 18, we weren't the level of smart-a$$ed kid that those two are, and if we were ... oh, Hell, what Steve said. The game should be respected and those officiating it should be respectful and respectable, regardless of age and level of competition. There is not a fraction of an inch of room for smart a$$es like those two in the umpiring vocation. This business of treating these children like real umpires who demand respect and should be treated like any umpire is almost laughable. Pay your dues, and do your homework and then you can begin to show an umpire's veneer and be accorded the decorum and respect that an umpire should expect.

Gotta disagree here. If they're on the field, they're real umpires. I know some are better than others, but they're still 'real' umpires.

I've got to say, I'm shocked that it took until GA Umpire's initial response for anyone to go with the "no, you kicked the crap out of it, the way you handled that sitch." And that includes some veterans of this forum. On these boards, we've all heard/read/told war stories of parents/players/coaches that come out and hassle umpires after a game. How is this OP any different? jwwashburn had some calls he didn't like, but he waited until after the game to address it. I'm not saying he did it in a bad way, from the description he gave, but when the game's over, it's over - don't approach the umpires afterwards.

Why you didn't bother to speak up during the game is beyond me - at that age level, getting coaches to stay relatively quiet is much harder. And if you didn't want it addressed during the game, but wanted to speak to someone, go to the assignor or the head umpire for the league.

Again: approaching the umpire after the game to discuss/dispute calls == bad.

I think where SDS and others seem to have the problem is the age of the umpire, and that's wrong, too. We've had other youngsters on this forum, and they're usually encouraged, so what's the deal ripping these two? So they gave jwwashburn a face-full; so what? Are you guys saying that, if a coach had approached you after the game, you'd not give back some attitude? Jwwashburn opened to door to this problem, so he gets what he gets in return.

And this is said with my own 16-yo at home who has that much disrespect as the two umpires in question, and then some. And I'm still not ready to jump on the 'kid' umpires. The tone of some here sounds too much like the "You kids get off my lawn" attitude.

Yes, exactly. When I was a young stud, if I had EVER spoken to an adult in that fashion, that said adult would have cheerfully slapped me hard, then told my dad, who would have slapped me harder.

My VP in middle school called my dad to get permission to give me what they used to call "licks," which were very hard swats with a paddle that had holes drilled in it. My dad cheerfully told him to "lay it on him!" The "board of education" it was called back in those days.

Times have changed, and sadly not for the better.:(

TO HOKIEUMP:

I did not address it during the game because I thought the chance of them doing anything was remote. They have idiot rats chewing on them all the time. In the heat of the moment, there would be no way for them to distinguish me from an idiot rat.(be quiet Steve! I left the door wide open, I know, I know)

I approached after the game and asked "May I ask you a question?" Only then did I do it. I had hoped to encourage him to look at the book. When I saw that I was dealing with know-it-all punks, I chose to walk away. I was convinced that my approach was correct..I posted here for feedback.

Joe In Missouri
http://www.elpolloloco.com/images/epl_logo.gif

You're wrong, yet again.

I have not defended their behavior at all.

Okay. I'm wrong.

Children can and should talk to respectful, respectable adults the way those two addressed Mr. Washburn. According to you, Matt.

In what society is that brand of behavior welcome from kids? And what would you like us to call it as you curiously and assiduously defend the smart-a$$ed behavior of these two kids posing as umpires?

Fair enough. I just feel that, if you wanted the call correct at the time, that's when you need to address it - at that time. If your priority is a 'learning experience,' I still submit that immediately post-game - where they still only know you as Rat, not Fellow Umpire - isn't the place. If Rats want us to "stay out of my dugout," then my reply to Rats is "stay out of my ... er, area-behind-my-trunk-where-I-change."

And that's my feedback - don't go in that 'space' after game. If you didn't want to hear a/my dissenting opinion, don't ask the question.

Look, I have no reason to believe that you were anything but polite, from what I read on the forum. And there might have been more crap flung back at you than should have been, since you're talking about not-quite-fully-formed adults. But I think there's been a tangent or an agenda, because they weren't fully grown men - maybe not by you, but it's certainly coloured the opinions of others here. Are people saying they don't have "know-it-all punks" in their associations, of any/every age group? Really? If so, I want in YOUR group!

And even if you went in with the best of intentions, it's hard to say how THEY felt as they were changing. After some games I do, I'm not in a happy mood: either the play was miserable, I might have kicked something - or at least am unsure of something I did/didn't do - the coaches may have been right b@st@rds, it's hot, etc, etc. The last thing I want is a coach to come and ask a question, then tell me "I think it would be a good idea for you to look that up in your rules book later on." You're telling me "You need to learn the rules," no matter how nicely you've phrased it; since I haven't told you "You need to learn how to coach" - and, boy, many games offer up THAT thought in my head - then don't come telling me how to do my job.

Again, you asked for feedback in the OP, you got it.

Joe,

You are a respectful and respectable adult, who chose to address two kids in a way that showed them more respect than they have earned, and in response to that, were addressed in a wholly inappropriate and unacceptable way. It is ludicrous to suggest that the codes and norms and traditions and privileges that apply to umpiring at the higher levels also apply to kids calling Little League games. They have earned almost no respect and deserve almost no respect, yet you showed them respect by not publicly embarrassing them and demeaning them.

You're a class guy and you should know that.

This shows the level of your integrity--making things up that I have never said.

Tell me where I defended the behavior. I gave an explanation as to why they acted this way, but never defended it.

Respect does not have to be earned. It is a right as a human being, until one loses that right through action, or gains more by virtue of action or position.

You are applying adult standards and manly respectability to children who haven't earned a shred of it.

Joe's instinct was to make these two smart-a$$es aware of some of what they need to learn to merely function in the role that they are already pretending to fill and maybe help them stop cheating little kids with their shoddy, uninformed work. Any experienced umpire who offers any beginner some umpiring tips should be received respectfully and without hesitation.

An experienced adult umpire being approached at the car by a coach is an entirely different situation. For that, there is an established standard that is not in place for children posing as umpires.

Okay. Open question to all of you in the "these kids today, with their hair and their clothes, why you little ... mumble mumble five cents for a movie mumble mumble FDR mumble" group:

Is the pitchfork-and-torch reaction based on the response, or the age, of the umpires in question?

In other words: make these umpires my age (nearly 44), and try to replay the scenario in your head cleanly. Would you still harrumph as much, or would your responses to the OP been more of a "don't f--- with the umpires post-game about calls"? I believe it would be the latter.

Look, on this board on numerous occasions, as I said before, there are stories of Dad/Junior/Junior's Coach approaching an umpire at his car, or on his way to the lot, after a game. And we on the board have had the consensus of that being A Bad Thing.

If you hate the upcoming generations, fine - but just be honest and admit it influences your response here. (Like I said earlier, I have 2 teens of my own, and witnessing what's coming through the pipeline, with the MyFaceSpaceBook, and seemingly every kid acting like a wannabe gangsta, etc, etc, makes me worry about when that generation is in charge of my breathing tube one day. But I try not to knee-jerk about every last d@mn one of them.)

....and I'm not condoning whichever umpire yelled at jwwashburn as he walked away. I do think the "stop sign" and the "that's enough", while not the optimal response, probably, was still a response to the essential statement of "I know the rule, and maybe you should try learning the rules sometime" from a 'rat coach.' We all know that's what WE'D think if we'd been the umpires at the car.

Oh.

It read as a defense. And I didn't quote you, but voiced my interpretation of your curious defense of these two.

I didn't question your integrity, so please don't misread something and then insult mine.

I'm astonished that you would infer all of this based on our opinion on the specific case of two smart-a$$ed kids in a youth baseball setting.

Wow. Seriously, you have some hostility issues with America's youth, mate.

One, I don't think Joe felt they were smart-asses, and they were "pretenders" and they were "cheating little kids" BEFORE he approached them - that sounds more like your emotions painting the post.

Two, no where in Joe's OP says that he approached them as an "experienced umpire" offering "umpiring tips." IIRC, he asked if could ask a question, but did not ID himself. So again, you're looking to just hammer these kids because they're, well, kids.

KF, if a coach - again, Joe was a COACH and not ID'd otherwise - had come to you and, in the course of the discussion, said "you should learn the rules" in so many words, would you have liked it, and said "why, I'll take that on board!"? Really?

Yeah, and it's called when-the-coach-comes-to-your-car-after-the-game-to-b!tch-you-tell-him-to-eff-off.

If this was truly meant to be a learning experience, go to the assignor or the UIC of the league, and voice concerns.

You're acting as though only those under 21 f--- up OBS calls. And you're acting like that scary guy at the end of the block who has a 40-year collection of balls, bikes, kites, etc. from the neighborhood children.

Your interpretation was that Matt thinks these young men responded appropriately? You either didn't read what he said closely enough or you're just being disingenuous and disrespectful, which I find a bit ironic.

Well, without digging that hard, I can look at your posts 3, 11, 23, 28 and 33, at least to get a sense of that. Toss in some of SDS's posts, and I don't think my inference is that far off.

(And "two smart-a$$ed kids" sort of gives your stance away, don't you think? :) )

Hey, dont bring me into this fight.:mad:

I see 2 mistakes in the OP. The 1st is the coach approaching the umpires post game. The 2nd is the reaction from those umpires. Mistakes on both sides.

Joe posted only 2 complaints about the umpires, so "cheating little kids with their shoddy, uninformed work" is not a valid statement and over the top. I'm sure I've kicked a couple in a game once but wouldnt describe my actions like you did.

And we all have heard a coach claim "but I'm an umpire, so.." and realize that its (true or not, mostly not) just a ploy to get his way. Good umpires that coach should know to leave their officials hat at home, and not try to use that to get their way. So in this sich, Joe wasnt an experienced umpire offering tips to beginners, he was a coach, plain and simple....

A more proper way to state your interpretation would have been, "It appears that you feel that the behavior exhibited by these two was appropriate," or something to that effect, maybe even "So you think these two jackasses were right?"

I didn't misread anything. This sentence is attributing a sentiment to me that is not mine (putting words in my mouth, if you will.)

Sorry. Sometimes, collateral damage may occur. ;)

I have had coaches respectfully approach me after a game about rules. I refer him to the UIC because the UIC has asked us to do so.

If it is a simple question and I know the coach (and I know the coach to be levelheaded, I sometimes will answer it if we are out of the earshot of other people.

I am 41 years old and I would have had no problem with a coach approaching me in the way that I approached these two guys. If I had kicked a rules interp. I certainly would have a lot more patience.

Joe

I got photos of the two guys:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...visprofile.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6KoPNrNgNV...0/butthead.jpg

If any coach approaches me about something after the game, I will not listen to them. Things get escalated very quickly and turn out bad. I don't care if I think they are levelheaded. There are stories of that as well.

If there is a question about a call, bring it up during the game. NOT after it. If you are not going to be a coach during the game, don't try to ambush the umpire after it. Leave it on the field and it ends there.

I can't believe how many are turning a blind eye to this coach/umpire, who should know better, doing the same thing as any other coach who they do not know is an umpire. Plain and simple. The OP poster should have kept away from them after the game. That is why, if possible, we park away from the teams. To get away from them after the game is over.

It has nothing to do with age. Whether or not the umpires got the call wrong makes no difference. Next time, when you have your coach's hat on, keep it on even after the game. Leave the umpires alone even if they know you are an umpire. Talk about anything other than the game or "You get what you get". I don't care if a supposed "veteran" umpire approaches me. If he was involved in the game I just worked, then he better keep his mouth shut about that game. If he says anything other than "that kid really could pitch" or something like that, then conversation is over and he better leave.

If he did not want me to ask him a question, all he had to do was say no.

My skin is not so thin that I cannot talk to coaches after the game. Like I said before, I refer them to the UIC for rules questions and I never will discuss judgment calls.

These two guys actually had put their stuff right beside our team's stuff outside our dugout. I did not go find them, they were standing right there.

Which is exactly what you should have done. You say it in your own posts but yet you don't abide by it and want camaraderie(and appear to be getting it).

Then, you should have moved your stuff or waited until they moved theirs. You ambushed them after the game about a rule/judgment call instead of going to the UIC(which you state you would tell any coach to do but did not follow that same logic).

Are you beginning to understand the situation yet? You tell other coaches to leave you alone but you felt the need to disobey that same logic. Yet, you say "I am not thin-skinned". It has nothing to do with that. It is called "Baseball Etiquette". When the game is over, it is over. Do not approach the umpires. I don't care how you dress it up of how you would handle it. It is the same thing only you were treated the same as you would treat other coaches. Only, these kids got a little smart with you. Boo-who.:( Who is not thin-skinned?

Best way to handle it: Leave the umpires alone.

coach should have addressed the issue on field during the game. who wants a coach harrassing you in the parking lot? usually a coach who follows an umpire to his car is not quite so polite. the umps didn't need to be disrespecftul, they should have just directed the coach to their assignor/UIC. this is where the coach should have gone initially - after the game was over if he had a question.

[QUOTE=GA Umpire;603509] Then, you should have moved your stuff or waited until they moved theirs. You ambushed them after the game about a rule/judgment call instead of going to the UIC(which you state you would tell any coach to do but did not follow that same logic).

I did not ambush them. That is baloney. I asked permission then I calmly asked a question. That is not an ambush.

[QUOTE=GA Umpire;603509]Are you beginning to understand the situation yet? You tell other coaches to leave you alone but you felt the need to disobey that same logic. Yet, you say "I am not thin-skinned". It has nothing to do with that. It is called "Baseball Etiquette". When the game is over, it is over. Do not approach the umpires. I don't care how you dress it up of how you would handle it. It is the same thing only you were treated the same as you would treat other coaches. Only, these kids got a little smart with you. Boo-who.:( Who is not thin-skinned?

I do not tell coaches to leave me alone. I am civil and polite. It sounds as if you have an enormous chip on your shoulder. I was not treated the same way I would have treated other coaches. I was completely calm and respectful and they flew off the handle. Their lack of knowledge of the rules and arrogance is going to get someone hurt. Especially when we are talking about OBS. I waited until after the game because I thought there was a slightly better chance that these two guys might stand a chance of hearing me and getting it right in the future. Judging by their reaction, if I had approached them during the game, I probably would have been tossed.

Joe in Missouri

Joe In Missouri

I did not follw anyone anywhere. They were standing outside of my dugout...that is where they threw their bags when they showed up after game time.

my mistake as far as where the umps were located. that is not nearly as bad as trying to talk to them in the parking lot, but i still think you should have addressed the issue at the time of the plays rather than after the game was over.

Did they know you were going to ask a question about a call/no call from the game? If not(and probably not), then that is ambushing and putting them on the spot to answer the question. You don't see it that way b/c you were the one asking the questions. Reverse the roles and you would see it b/c you said yourself if they start on a rule/judgment call, you will send them to the UIC which is avoiding the ambush.

How you do it is beside the point. You are still telling them to leave b/c they are questioning something which happened during the game and go talk to the UIC(avoiding the ambush).
Avoiding my ambush now. Isn't it great how it is being done b/c I am telling you that you did it wrong. Funny how that is working just the same as you telling coaches to talk to the UIC. These kids didn't avoid the ambush(shame on them). They told you conversation was over, albeit, not nicely(good for them). In your OP, you showed how once they gave an answer, you became argumentative with them. Who is worse, the argumentative coach or the rude umpire? Toss up there.

Then, if you felt that way, question it during the game. If you thought anyone would get hurt, then why did you let 2 incidences occur during your game. Were your own players' safety not on your mind during the game?

Well, you will never know since you didn't handle it correctly. You did it wrong from the beginning. You started the whole mess being wrong and now don't know what to do. Also, if you were ejected during the game, then the UIC would have to review the ejection report. And, guess what, then he could have brought it to their attention and informed them the correct way.

You screwed up. If you want to be a coach, then do your job. Don't be afraid to be ejected if you feel so strongly about getting an umpire to check the rules or change the call. Handle it on the field where some good may come of it. Don't handle it off the field which(as you found out) may get you no where.

From your original post, it appears that they didn't mind being asked a question. But then you followed the question with:
That's thin ice you're skating on; some umpires might tolerate being contradicted and instructed on the rules, but most won't, even (or especially) when they are wrong or unsure.

So, you didn't handle it correctly, as others here have noted. Next time, either deal with it in the field, or with the assignor.

That is why you asked the question in the title of this thread, isn't it? To get opinions of how it should have been handled?

Sure! I wanted a variety of opinions on this.

I probably should not have made the comment after the question. I was actually surprised at just how clueless the guy was. I should not have been surprised but, I was.