Which rules do you enforce

[PeteBooth]

Burried in the OP concerning sectional 1-0 controversy was a recollection of game given to us by Major Dave as follows:

Quote:
The home plate umpire, however, called Irvin out at the plate because a teammate gave him a high five before he touched the base.

According to baseball and NIAA rules, the call was legit, but many questioned the need to make it at such a critical juncture of the game.

The question?

Do you enforce EVERYTHING

Case and point

The Mets played the BOSOX this past weekend. In the top of 9 with the Mets trailing by a run and Sheffield on base, Omir Santos hit what turned out to be the game winnng HR after replay.

After Joe West and company came out after reviewing the replay, Joe gave the HR signal. Out comes Francona of the BOSOX and the announcers wondered what he was doing. After all the decision regarding the HR had been made, however, that was not what Francona was referring to.

Francona was referring to the fact that Met third base coach Manny Acta grabbed Sheffield after Sheffield rounded thrid base thinking that the ball was an HR to begin with.

The HR call stood.

Mark McGwire was also grabbed by the first base coach on way to his memorable HR at that time.

The point is this.

There are RULES but do you call them as in the situation Major Dave referred to. We already know that MLB overlooks some of these "Ticky Tac" rules

Pete Booth

[johnnyg08]

Often times, I think we have to look at the spirit of the rule, versus the letter of the rule. However, based upon that, everybody sees things a bit differently.

For example, at the FED level, do you call every single balk that you see or do you tell the pitcher to "don't do that" on some of the more ticky-tack balks?

Another one...if neither teams says anything about the "gorilla arm" do you just let it go until the other team asks you to enforce it?

I think there are times where we have to enforce the rules as they're written and times where we simply have to play ball.

This could be a very good thread for discussion around the issues you're asking about.

This season, I've watched the MLB guys leave the field on a walk-off HR...w/o even watching the touch at home...did they walk off the field since the runs (3-run walk off) that already legally touched had "won" the game and even if the hitter misses home plate, the game is over anyway?

[DG]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Another one...if neither teams says anything about the "gorilla arm" do you just let it go until the other team asks you to enforce it?

The gorilla arm was an interpretation from 2005. It has never made it to the rule book or case book, and I dare say there are few if any coaches who know about it and very few umpires. I have never seen it called by any of my peers. I have never heard it mentioned during a game by anyone. So I don't call it. There is my answer to Pete's question.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Another one...if neither teams says anything about the "gorilla arm" do you just let it go until the other team asks you to enforce it?
I apologize for being really dense here, but I don't recall the term. Can someone tell me what "gorilla arm" translates into?

[DG]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Another one...if neither teams says anything about the "gorilla arm" do you just let it go until the other team asks you to enforce it?
I apologize for being really dense here, but I don't recall the term. Can someone tell me what "gorilla arm" translates into?

From the 2005 Interps:

SITUATION #5: While in the set position, F1 has his pitching hand down in front of his body, swinging slowly as he gets the sign from the catcher. RULING: The use of this “gorilla” stance in the set position is illegal. A pitcher, for the set position, shall have his pitching hand down at his side or behind his back. (6-1-3)

[Paul L]

The gorilla arm was a trademark of the late Rod Beck, at least when he was closing for the SF Giants back in the mid-90's. AFAIK, no one complained, including the umpires.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Do any of you out there believe that a pitcher in the "gorilla arm" set is going to not only throw over to first but pick the guy off????????

Pick that booger all you want................

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by DG

From the 2005 Interps:

SITUATION #5: While in the set position, F1 has his pitching hand down in front of his body, swinging slowly as he gets the sign from the catcher. RULING: The use of this “gorilla” stance in the set position is illegal. A pitcher, for the set position, shall have his pitching hand down at his side or behind his back. (6-1-3)

Originally Posted by Paul L

The gorilla arm was a trademark of the late Rod Beck, at least when he was closing for the SF Giants back in the mid-90's. AFAIK, no one complained, including the umpires.

Yes, Shooter did that (when he was with the Padres too!), but I didn't know what it was called. Heath Bell does it too, and I think he got the idea from Beck. I have seen many HS pitchers do it, and I've never heard an opposing coach complain about it. I think it's cool, and intimidates the hitter a little. A little Psy-Ops never hurts. As far as I'm concerned, the arm is "at his side," and I would never dream of calling anything on that.

[archangel]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Burried in the OP concerning sectional 1-0 controversy was a recollection of game given to us by Major Dave as follows:

Quote:
Quote:
The home plate umpire, however, called Irvin out at the plate because a teammate gave him a high five before he touched the base.

According to baseball and NIAA rules, the call was legit, but many questioned the need to make it at such a critical juncture of the game.
The question?
Do you enforce EVERYTHING
Case and point

Francona was referring to the fact that Met third base coach Manny Acta grabbed Sheffield after Sheffield rounded thrid base thinking that the ball was an HR to begin with.
The HR call stood.
Mark McGwire was also grabbed by the first base coach on way to his memorable HR at that time.
There are RULES but do you call them as in the situation Major Dave referred to. We already know that MLB overlooks some of these "Ticky Tac" rules
Pete Booth

Thankfully, FED doesnt have a rule against touching (non-assistance type) a runner, i.e. high five when coming home.

In addition there is FED Case Play 3.2.2 A:
B1 hits a HR and while rounding 3rd, trips over the base. Coach helps B1 to his feet. RULING: The ball is dead and, since B1 is awarded 4 bases for the HR, he is allowed to score with this type of assistance.

I'd like to say that 100% of us say "No, I dont enforce everything" but absolutes are......

I dont look to close at a coach's clothes, as long as they are team colors. In Ohio, its cold in the Spring so......
I dont look to see if an on deck circle is legal size. I have enough to do.
And if I were to do youth ball, I'd probably loosen things up a bit(probably).

[Ump153]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Burried in the OP concerning sectional 1-0 controversy was a recollection of game given to us by Major Dave as follows:


Quote:

The question?

Do you enforce EVERYTHING

Case and point

The Mets played the BOSOX this past weekend. In the top of 9 with the Mets trailing by a run and Sheffield on base, Omir Santos hit what turned out to be the game winnng HR after replay.

After Joe West and company came out after reviewing the replay, Joe gave the HR signal. Out comes Francona of the BOSOX and the announcers wondered what he was doing. After all the decision regarding the HR had been made, however, that was not what Francona was referring to.

Francona was referring to the fact that Met third base coach Manny Acta grabbed Sheffield after Sheffield rounded thrid base thinking that the ball was an HR to begin with.

The HR call stood.

Mark McGwire was also grabbed by the first base coach on way to his memorable HR at that time.

The point is this.

There are RULES but do you call them as in the situation Major Dave referred to. We already know that MLB overlooks some of these "Ticky Tac" rules

Pete Booth

Let's go back to your premise:

According to baseball and NIAA rules, the call was legit, but many questioned the need to make it at such a critical juncture of the game.


Are you certain that this is accurate?

[MajorDave]

set of rules the call was incorrect based upon my research. I went to web and found NIAA official's site and looked at the state rules. Nevada calls them regulations. Nothing in there to prohibit a touching of a runner on a dead ball. I then spent an hour (slow wet Saturday morning) reading through my FED rules book, casebook and umpires book. There is nothing in any of those three books to prohibit the high five of a player on a homerun trot before he touches home plate. I seem to remember in an old FED casebook from sometime in the last three years that there was a case stating that this was not assistance and umpires were instructed not to call players out for this. Additionally, on a home run the ball is dead thus no prohibition on players out of the dugout. Even if there was the penalty is to first warn then eject and that is for the offending players not the batter-runner.

In summary, this umpire got this very wrong unless there is a secret hidden rule in Nevada that we are not privy to. Sort of a rule myth that a championship series umpire screwed up. I would not have called that, ever.

OOO? I think so. I am still annoyed by this ruling for some reason. I also think that the stupid coach, unless there is some secret rule for Nevada, goofed up too by not protesting the ruling and the game in a timely manner.

My two cents or so, your mileage and analysis may vary.

[Ump153]

This isn't a case of selecting which rules to enforce. This is a case of not knowing the rules, by almost everyone involved...the umpires, coaches, and reporters.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I believe it was an old myth that you couldn't touch the home run hitter until he touched the plate. I remember youth ball teams would always yell at each other, "dont' touch him...dont' touch him!" while lining up at the plate to congratulate their hero. I always thought to myself, "why not?" I certainly would not call someone out for such a petty BS call like that.

This is truly an example of an umpire wanting to inject himself into the game, as if it weren't enough to be a participant in an official capacity.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I believe it was an old myth that you couldn't touch the home run hitter until he touched the plate. I remember youth ball teams would always yell at each other, "dont' touch him...dont' touch him!" while lining up at the plate to congratulate their hero. I always thought to myself, "why not?" I certainly would not call someone out for such a petty BS call like that.

This is truly an example of an umpire wanting to inject himself into the game, as if it weren't enough to be a participant in an official capacity.

It was an old NCAA rule (I think softball had this also also) designed to keep the players from lining up down the 3rd base line to congratulate the HR hitter. The schools claimed that this action was intimidating because the offensive players were taunting F1 & F2 during this congratulatory action. Over the years, it was quietly removed but the whole mess filtered down to the lower schools and leagues.

The main thing is to keep the plate clear so we can see the runners & BR touch the plate, just in case the defense wants to make an appeal.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I believe it was an old myth that you couldn't touch the home run hitter until he touched the plate. I remember youth ball teams would always yell at each other, "dont' touch him...dont' touch him!" while lining up at the plate to congratulate their hero. I always thought to myself, "why not?" I certainly would not call someone out for such a petty BS call like that.

This is truly an example of an umpire wanting to inject himself into the game, as if it weren't enough to be a participant in an official capacity.

When I have a ton of people out to celebrate, I proactively get in there and say simply "Let him touch. Let him touch." Would I do anything if they mobbed him before he touched? No. Am I trying to avoid a near-certain poopstorm? Yes.