How can I prove this?
 

FED rules. #2 is the DH batting for #25. #2 reaches second base. I want to enter #25 to pinch run for #2. I ask to make sure that I can re-enter #2 the next time the spot in the lineup comes up and then still have a re-entry for #25 since he is also a starter. PU told me to show him in the rule book (which he has to allow in our state) that I could do that and he would allow it. I know both players have a re-entry since they are starters, but I could not find a place that would convince them that I was right. Can anyone give me a rule reference to use to show this in the future?

Thanks

#25 is a starter
 

He cannot pinch run for the DH.
His name should not be listed as a sub on the line-up card.

If the defensive player hits or runs for the DH then the DH role is finished. If you allow #25 to run, #2 is no longer DH for him. If you bring back #2, #25 cannot play defense. You now have EITHER #2 or #25 in the game, but no longer both.

This is not a substitution as in bringing in #4 to DH rather than #2.

You can't.

Case book 3.1.4 Situation C: F4, for whom the DH is batting, pinch hits or pinch runs for the DH. RULING: The DH position is eliminated for the remainder of the game. However, the starting DH could re-enter as a player but not in the role of DH. If the does re-enter, he must re-enter in the same position in the batting order, replacing F4.

That covers part of your question but not whether F4 can re-enter but seems logical since he has only left the game once and he was a starter.

There's also a FED interp from several years ago that alloows both starters to re-enter -- just as the OP wanted to do.

But that's an old interp though right?

Under the case book play we know that the starting DH may re-enter but not in role of DH. F4 was a starter on defense who went in offensively (and thereby eliminated the DH), then left the game. Under what logic would we allow the original DH to re-enter the game but not F4, who was also a starter, and has only left the game once?

What difference does it make how old the interp is? I started keeping the official interps in 04, and don't see it back that far, but so what?

Its definitely legal..........

pg 29 rule 3-1-art.3 should cover it...
Any of the starting players may be withdrawn and re enter once, including a player who was the designated hitter, provided such player occupies the same batting position whenever he is in the line up. The pitcher is governed by Art.2 (which deals with his replacement pitching to one batter etc. nothing to do with returning to the line up.)

Let's break down your example to show what you can do:


#2 Jones is batting for #25 Smith.

--Jones is on 2nd. Smith enters to pinch run. (DH is now terminated and Jones has been out of the game once).

--Jones re-enters. (Smith has now been out of the game once and has re-entry eligibility).

--Smith re-enters for Jones (Jones is now done for the day).

--Fred substitutes for Smith (Smith is now done for the day).


But as the original poster noted, there's no concrete evidence in the rule or case book to show you can do this.

Starters may leave the game once and subsequently re-enter. Smith was in the game when he went in to run for Jones, thereby eliminated DH. He leaves. He can re-enter. How much concrete do we need?

Exactly. DH is a starter. We always teach if you have the DH you have 10 starters. Go from there.

Actually had a coach do this a few weeks ago and it worked.

Thanks
David

FED Conflict?
 

I have no argument if a substitute player fills in as pinch runner for the DH.
I would allow the DH to return to DH.

BRD 62 Batter: DH: Player returns offensively
FED: A player may leave the line-up and return offensively and/or defensively under the reentry rule. (3-1-3)

Connecting the dots, can both of them continue in the ballgame in their previous roles?

BRD 67 Batter: DH: Pinch hitter/runner for DH
FED: A pinch hitter or pinch runner for the DH becomes the DH. (3-1-4; 3-1-4 b) Except: The DH is terminated if the player for whom the DH currently hits (or any player for whom he has batted), pinch hits or pinch runs for him. (3-1-4a and c).

No, and there's no requirement stating that they have to do so.

Let me sum this up...

The rules and case plays clearly state that the coach's desire to substitute the "player being batted for" for the DH is perfectly legal.

This would, in fact, terminate the role of the DH for that team. But, not the player who was fulfilling that role. As a starter, he has left the game once, and has one re-entry remaining.

The player being batted for is also a starter and has not yet left the game.

Everyone but SAUmp agrees with this.

If that doesn't prove it, I don't know what does.

JM

No argument here.
This is where the problem lies. The old DH may return to the ballgame and occupy the same place in the line-up as the new DH. But the role of the old DH role has been terminated in the OP.
This guy became the player {already in the game defensively} now in the offensive line-up in place of the terminated DH. If the DH is to return to that spot, wait the DH is terminated. That is now impossible. If the player who was DH returns to his spot in the lineup, the replacement DH must leave the game. Otherwise, FED rules now allow the terminated DH role to become reprised. Huh?
I'm just asking someone to eliminate some of the the pronouns and state exactly how the termination of the DH role was later reprised by exactly the same two starting players?

There is no more DH after the first switch. When the original DH comes back in, it's not as a DH. There is no requirement that a player returns in the same role, just in the same spot in the order. Defensive positions are irrelevant to that spot in the order--F1 could be removed, and another fielder taking his place as F1, yet the substitute will always bat in the old F1's spot in the order, as he was the player removed, even though he is not playing the same defensive position.

I think making a faux lineup helps...
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAump (Post 602693) I get lost there.

1. Able 3
2. Bruce 6
3. Charles 7
4. Davis DH for James
5. Eugene 8
6. Frank 2
7. George 5
8. Henry 9
9. Iban 4
10. James 1

Davis reaches base and James PR for him, lineup card now looks like this, James must bat in the 4 spot as he is running for his DH who batted there. Notice only 9 players as DH has been eliminated for remainder of game. Davis is a starter that has now left for the first time and James who he was batting for is still in the game as the starting pitcher.

1. Able 3
2. Bruce 6
3. Charles 7
4. James 1 (PR for DH Davis)
5. Eugene 8
6. Frank 2
7. George 5
8. Henry 9
9. Iban 4

Davis now reenters for the first time but now must play defense too and still has to bat in the 4 spot. He replaces James in the lineup and is inserted as the first basemen and Able moves to pitch. James has now left for the first time from his position as a starting pitcher and retains reentry rights.

1. Able 1
2. Bruce 6
3. Charles 7
4. Davis 3
5. Eugene 8
6. Frank 2
7. George 5
8. Henry 9
9. Iban 4

James now reenters, as pitcher moving Able back to first, and must do so for Davis in the 4 spot. Davis is now done for the day as he has exited a second time.

1. Able 3
2. Bruce 6
3. Charles 7
4. James 1
5. Eugene 8
6. Frank 2
7. George 5
8. Henry 9
9. Iban 4

Does this help anyone understand that wasn't to clear?

w_sohl
 

Ah. Can't argue that. Thanks.
Dumb me was looking at them back in the game at the same time.
Your explanation shows how it is possible to meet both criteria.

so basically if he re-enters in the same spot in the lineup, for who was the previous DH, he can do that...but they can't re-enter him in a different spot in the lineup?

By DHing for James, Davis and James are locked into the 4th spot in the batting order for that particular game.

okay, that makes sense...so in a sense, they're still locked into each other because they were connected to the DH

I wouldn't use that logic, becasue it doesn't apply to OBR anbd NCAA.

I'd just use the FED rule that the DH and the DEFO can't both be in the game at the same time, and must bat in that particualr spot in the order.

Okay, thanks Bob.

What is different in OBR and NCAA? Other than reentry of course.

The DEFO can enter in the batting order in a spot other than that occupied by the DH. Both the DEFO and the DH can be on offense (or defense) at the same time.

Not saying you are wrong, but that doesn't make sense to me. If you are the DH for someone how can the person they are DHing for bat? Isn't the DH tied to another player?

you can have a pitcher/dh be the same person in NCAA...so when the pitcher is done, he can enter the game as the DH when he's done pitching. fun huh?

A pitcher, in OBR, never had a batting order slot, so if the DH takes a defensive position and pitcher stays in the game then the pitcher takes the batting slot of the defensive player removed. Thus both pitcher and DH are in the game at same time, but DH position is terminated.

In NCAA the pitcher can be designated at P/DH and can stay in the game as DH for the new pitcher if he leaves the pitcher position.

In FED, DH and the player he is DH for are locked into a batting order slot.

OK, I think I get it now. Wow, that sounds like the NCAA version can be pretty confusing.

You could say that. ;)

Carl wrote a free article on it. I read through it twice and still didn't understand it completely.

w_sohl,

That is an understatement.

JM

Law students use the NCAA DH rule to warm up for the bar exam.:D