When did they change the balk rule?
 

This is more for amusement than anything else.

NCAA D3 nonconference doubleheader (two 7s). Top of 7th in game 1 with the home team trailing 6-4. They've made a slow comeback on Senior Day, where graduating seniors are being honored with their mothers, since it's also Mother's Day. Runners are on first and third with 1 out. Pitcher is throwing back to first base a few times to hold R1 on, for obvious reasons. He finally delivers the pitch, only to race right through the Set without stopping. At all. I call the balk, the pitch isn't hit, and I award bases. R3 consequently scores. I turn around and find the home team's head coach already at the plate yelling, "Why do you have to call a balk in every game you work?" I replied rhetorically, "Why does your pitcher have to commit a balk in every game?"

"You can't call a balk in a tight game like this! You can't call a balk in a situation like this," he tells me. I purposely look to the field where R2 is now on second and say to the head coach, "It's instinctive for me. Your pitcher sees it and I call it. I am not concerned about the position of the runners or the score of the game, but before I call a balk again, I'll be sure to check the score of the game or where the runners are, because I didn't know balks are called dependent on the game situation of runners' position."

"You're phucking...!" He never did finish that comment, which was irrelevant, because as soon as I heard the word "phucking," which followed "You're," I tossed him. He gets madder and asks why I ejected him. I tell him, to which he replies, "Oh yeah? Well, you're phucking horrible! You're phucking terrible!" as he's chest-to-chest with me now.

I literally had to prevent myself from laughing, because I kinda thought this was amusing (I don't get so worked up over such arguments and ejections). I've got to check Evans's manual or the J/R book to see where they changed the balk rule to be dependent on runners' positions or the game's score.

I can't say for sure but I think you can find that ruling right after it talks about the hands being part of the bat. ;) If you make it to the point where the "tie" goes to the runner you have gone to far. :D You might also want to check around the part where foul tips are dead balls.:p

I completely get the issue with the coach - if he wants situational calls, he should be a football or hockey coach. (I love hockey, but the officiating in the NHL makes me crazy - either don't call anything at all, or call it the same way the entire game!)

Anyway, I have a question from the game managment side of the house. I have about 60 posts to your 1,200+, and the only college guys I umpire for would be some summer wood-bat and NABA (where they're hidden among other players) games, but ... if someone like me were to post a similar story, wouldn't the ol.., er, experienced umpires here just rip me for baiting the head coach?

Certainly, the coach proved his rat-hood by going down the Situational Cul-de-sac, but your initial response, followed with the talk about checking the runners next time, walked him right into the EJ.

Or is this some college thing, where we can do that at that level? Again, I'm not a college umpire, so maybe 'the game' is played a little differently there.

HokieUmp,

No, UMP25's baiting the coach into an ejection was completely unprofessional - even at the college level.

Also violates the NCAA code of ethics for umpires.

JM

Nahhh, he baited him a lil bit.

it's hard to restrain sometimes...but it's not a good idea to bait, then eject.

I have no reservations about what I said to him. Yes, I'm a veteran umpire, and yes, occasionally I may use some sarcasm in my responses to head coaches in order to get my point across.

obviously it's your choice to choose that style.

If you say the stuff you said to him, then you baited him into it, and it's not professional. Everyone has a job to do, and when a coach overdoes his, it's bad for the game. The same is true when one of us overdoes our job. It's not an acceptable practice. It was way too much talking even if it was appropriate. But it was inappropriate.

I have a few things in my game that I am proud of, and my zero coach ejections is one of them. All of my ejections are of players and they were for malicious contact (6), or unsportsmanlike conduct (2). It's that way, because nothing I say or do while emotions are running high makes the situation get worse. I let the blood cool, and then we have a conversation, and I win and the coach goes away and the game goes on. I am as sarcastic or as blunt as most, but not when I assume the role of umpire. When I assume that role, for the good of the game, I compromise my personality in favor of a game that features the players, and not the coaches or the umpires.

I am working a college conference tournament this past weekend in Green Bay, WI, and in middle of the 9th inning (storm clouds rolling in) get really dark and my first base umpire comes in and asked if I can have the lights turned on he is having a hard time seeing, usually do this at the start of an inning but we have to be able to see the ball. I have the home team (down by 3 runs at this time) turn the lights on. The visiting coach goes crazy yelling at me, "In the middle of an inning?" I replied "Coach I asked them to turn them on...you also want to be able to see fly balls and pop ups...don't you?" They calm down a bit. Bottom of 9th...first batter grounds out...new pitcher and new third baseman. First pitch the batter hits a foul popup behind third about a mile high and the SS runs about 25 yards to make the catch...maybe he doesn't see it without the lights on. Next batter hit another pop up on the infield a mile high and the SS catches it and they win the conference tournament. Coaches will argue just about anything!

If we let them. Our game management skills come into play here. Which in my opinion is just another piece of what separates a great umpire from just an ump.

Indeed it was, and I've never had problems with it. I average about 5 ejections per year out of some 150+ games. Last year I had 3 for the whole year, spring college and summer college combined. This year I had 3 for my spring. None of them were my fault.

A head coach who bolts out of the dugout to scream at me about a balk call is going to get ejected regardless of whether I ask him if I'm supposed to check the runners' positions before I call a balk.

I love the sanctimony of a few folks here. No one's perfect, of course, but I've never had a problem where game management has been concerned.

He won't get any situational favortism in my games! Neither did Jake Locker from a certain Pac-10 crew this past year. :)

Nice if you can get it but not all of us are that fortunate. I haven't ejected many coaches/managers but the ones I have all deserved it. I definitely didn't bait any of them into acting like idiots on the field.

Oftentimes that's not necessary, for they can act like that quite easily. ;)

Agreed. Some coaches just need runnin', and baiting them a little is a long-standing tradition and art form that the modern umpire eschews in favor of being "niiiiiiice." Screw that.

This is most certainly not a positive statistic, and it's not something to brag about, for sure. Show me an umpire with no coach ejections over a long period of time, and I'll show you an umpire who isn't doing their job right.

Coaches often times eject themselves, with absolutely no input from the umpire. I guess all of your games have gone perfectly, with no abusive language or personal comments directed toward you by any coaches, and I find that extremely hard to believe.

I'm with Kevin on this one. I used to give coaches short, sarcastic answers and ran them when they blew their fuse.

Over time, I've learned to use my occupational training to defuse the situation. I still have an occasion ejection, but now it is after a coach has made up his mind he's ready to hit the gate.

I call with guys who get pleasure from ejection stories. It doesn't do much for me anymore, whether it's h.s., legion, or college.

I'd say a head coach who's had a poor season, is frustrated, and comes running out of the dugout yelling over a simple no-stop balk call has already blown his fuse and is just looking to blame the umpire for his team's poor performance. He's also looking for a quick exit. I simply showed him the door.

(Having said that, I certainly don't hold a grudge against him and would not treat him any differently because of my having ejected him.)

Your sig seems to lie with your umpiring philosophy. He didn't show himself the gate, you pointed to it, opened it, and nearly kicked him through it IMO.

What would you have said had the roles been reversed? Would you have been able to keep a cool head if someone was throwing nothing but sarcasm at you?

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Remember...
 

Umpires don't eject players or coaches. Players and Managers eject themselves

I don't consider what UMP25 said to the coach as baiting. Being a smart a$$, maybe but I would have probably gone the same way with this conversation. I have to be honest, I liked the response!

To each his own, Ozzy. If I've learned one thing in this forum, it's that no matter what I may have said to the head coach, there'd be SOMEone here to criticize me for it under the category of "unprofessional" or something similar. After all, it's much easier to be an Internet umpire and pretend to tell real veteran umpires what they ought to do on the ball field.

My abilities are well-known by many who have worked with me, so I'm not worried about a couple people claiming they know what's best.

I never said I know what's best. Just different philosophies, which we're all entitled to.
I think ejections are a good thing. The first 15 years I called, I tossed a lot of coaches & players. Maybe that's why I don't have to anymore.

BTW, since my first post in this thread, I do remember tossing a coach in a Legion game last summer. Didn't have to bait him into it. 1st base coach made a comment about my partner's strike zone. I told him I'd heard enough. He didn't listen. Next time I dumped him.

That is nothing to be proud of. Any wimp could go around and not eject anyone; that isn't hard at all. Something to be proud of would be handling as many situations as possible correctly. Many times that means ejections.

So that's it, huh? Must not be doing their job. Or I'm a wimp. You shouldn't have such a narrow-minded view of umpires who solve (and win) conflicts without any coach ejections. Nor should you, LDUB.

My conflicts have been resolved virtually always to my satisfaction without ever having to toss a guy. I just don't let it get out of hand. I gain control of situations quickly with as few words as possible. And I also set it all up well at the plate meeting. There are many benefits to avoiding the ejection. I gain better results from these guys later in games or down the road when I don't toss them when they know I could or should. It's the way I do things. I don't back down, and I don't throw it around, either. All of my background and training have been put to use in my on-field conflict resolution actions. It's easy to win a conflict with an ejection. It's difficult to win a conflict without the use of that particular tool.

But there's just been no need to toss a coach ... yet.

The first time I decided not to toss a guy who crossed the line, I told him, "Mel, I know you think you're gone, but I'm going to make you stay and sit on that bench with your mouth closed and watch the entire game."

Then you must be special to never have had a coach without notice leave the dugout to argue balls & strikes and yell, "Where the phuck was that pitch?"

Leaving the dugout to argue balls & strikes is grounds for an immediate ejection in NCAA. One need not have to issue a warning, either; and to leave the dugout with the aformentioned comment sure isn't gonna earn a wimpy warning.

The first time? How many times do you bend over like that?

I rise above it out of respect for the game without the ego-driven spectacle of the ejection. You should try it.

And no, I have not had any coach come out and yell profanely about balls and strikes.

And lacking in courage, I am not. I just don't ever lose my cool in public---especially on a baseball field when I am in charge. And when someone is losing it with me, I can always cut it off quickly. It's just the way I am. I know how to take charge of a baseball situation in particular. I've done a lot of baseball jobs, and I usually know the game from more different directions than any coach I deal with. That helps.

I've even been a coach for many years ... one that never argued with umpires.

I, too, do not see this as baiting, and furthermore, I don't see it as necessarily being sarcastic.

I will. As a law-enforcement and military professional, I will always have a negative assessment of someone who refuses to consider using all available options when faced with conflict. It limits your ability to resolve it satisfactorily.

"Virtually always?" That's an oxymoron. Wordsmithing like this is a sign of someone attempting to convince himself what he says is true.

Here lies your problem--you view an ejection as a negative act, one that you must initiate. It is not. It is nothing more than a tool that is needed and proper for game management.

Think about police officers and arrests. The arrest is merely the logical end result of a series of actions, of which at least one is negative--it's not the negative action itself. We wouldn't praise a cop that has no arrests, and we shouldn't praise the umpire that keeps participants around at all costs.

This part has already been addressed. If someone has crossed the line, there is a need to toss him.

I will say this--anyone who talks about "the game" as some sort of revered entity has a misplaced sense of reverence.

Furthermore, ejections are a part of baseball, and anyone who dismisses them as "ego-driven" really should reconsider being an umpire.

Again, you conflate an ejection with ego. It's not about personal issues, it's simply a necessary part of baseball. Don't read more into it than what is there. Just like my police officer analogy--sure, there are times where cops take personal satisfaction in removing a less-than-productive member of society from the rest of it. However, the majority of times, an arrest is nothing more than an affirmation that a person has to account for his or her behavior.

The fact that KF believes ejections are ego-driven indicates that he does not understand the role of an umpire or the proper process by which baseball umpires are to handle certain situations. Baseball is unique among the major sports when it comes to doling out specific penalties to violators of rules or conduct.

We can't issue yellow cards. We can't penalize 15 yards for unsportsmanlike conduct. We can't call a technical. If someone personally insults us, if someone swears at us, we have two choices: leave said person in the game or remove them from the game. To choose the former results in our losing control of the game and letting said violators get away with actions they are not supposed to do. It also sends a poor message to the opposition: go ahead and demean me as an official, because I lack the fortitude to deal with it.

That is the problem with baseball (unless you are doing FED). There are no 2nd chances for the offenders. Baseball was designed as a "Gentleman's Game" meaning you held your tongue and played the game - simple as that! Ain't that way anymore, boys!

Oh and when a coach swears at me, as far as I am concerned, he just made it personal ------ GONE!

I'm not going to judge Kevin because I've never seen him umpire. With that said, basketball is much the same way with technical fouls. I know guys who just will not T a coach because they think it will piss said coach off, they want to "keep him in the game", or some other excuse to justify not having to take care of business. It's just a foul, just like any other foul. It's also frustrating as the partner of the guy who won't take care of business because the coach thinks he can walk all over you as well, then you pop him and all of a sudden you're the bad guy because you had to do what your partner wouldn't.

In the last 2 months I called a technical on a head coach (basketball) and also ejected an assistant coach (baseball). Both varsity level.

The basketball technical came when a player fouled out and the coach refused to give me a sub. I started the clock, told the coach he couldn't have a time out until the player was replaced, and waited. He kept insisting he wanted a time out and refused to give me a sub. After waiting 20 seconds, I asked one more time and then issued the technical.

The baseball ejection came after I called a runner out for missing first base. It was the third out of the inning and took a run off the board. I headed to the outfield and the coach was yelling at me "you need to open your freaking eyes and watch the game." The first time I ignored the comment and walked a bit deeper into the outfield. The second time (louder), I decided I needed to put a stop to it, so I told the coach I heard him and I had heard enough (long distance, but I had actually closed the distance in a non-threatening way). The third time, he ejected himself. You can't fix stupid.

I do not understand how anyone who works a significant number of games does not have an ejection. Ejections find you -- it may only be one or two a year or it may be 2-3 years between them....or it may be three in a game like I had last year, but when a coach crosses that line I fail to do my job if I don't eject. And then others see me not doing my job and I get a reputation as someone who doesn't do his job and so on and so on....

A small rule of thumb; usually if saying it makes me feel good, I probably shouldn't say it.

Example,

Coach comes out on a close one and says, " you missed that!" I reply, your team has 4 erros in 3 innings and I didn't see you run out here to tell them that they missed those." Sarcasim is usually bad on the field, but that doesn't mean I sometimes don't use it.

I think subtle sarcasm, if that, is one thing, but heavy sarcasm like the example you give is unacceptable. I'm sure all of us at some time in our careers has always wanted to pop off at a coach and remind him of his team's collapse, but we don't. We just smile or laugh inside ourselves when they blame us for costing them a run or the game, even though it was their 4 errors in one inning that resulted in the opposition scoring 8 runs.

If prejudice and shallowness and lack of profound thought are part of your life, try to avoid automatically ascribing it to all others. You are not qualified to judge me as a baseball man, given your tendencies.

Work on controlling your personality (that you freely and proudly admit you fail to control) in your work and maybe you won't get sworn at so much.

And if you lack courage, don't automatically ascribe that to others, either.

I forgot. Judging others is your job.

:rolleyes:

And as far as my personality, there is nothing wrong with it. It has served me well in umpiring and has earned me much respect over my 32-year career. Your allusion to it is rather bizarre, as is your excusing head coaches barreling out of dugouts swearing at umpires over balls and strikes.

If I were a head coach, I'd eat you alive on the ball field.

A) Coaches haven't sworn at me. If anyone ever swears at me, or threatens me, or impugns my integrity, I'll toss them, like I have a player for doing such a thing. That hasn't happened yet from a coach.
B) In Los Angeles, if you eject the coach, the game is over---so try not to apply your standards to everyone's work. They may not apply. I refuse to deny everyone the opportunity to see a ballgame because of a single jerk.
C) If you want to act like a cop or a sergeant (or lieutenant) go ahead. I am a manager and that's what is needed on a diamond---not a cop or a sergeant. I choose to manage games for the greater good, and not police them. I am authoritative and respectful.

I have always thought it was something to be proud of to keep my cool in public settings. Apparently, there are those who lack that skill or willingness or patience or thick skin in their role as umpire. I have it, and I use it.

I also don't prejudge all coaches. That helps a lot. Some of them are respectable, and when they're respected, they show respect in return. And you don't even need a gun to get respect like a cop does.

You play a lot of games. That's your choice.

And you choose not to control your personality when you work (like you freely admitted in starting this topic). It is your choice. It is unprofessional, but it's your choice. It results in outcomes that are unfavorable to the participants when you fail to control your personality, but it's your choice.

You would eat me alive? Stay in your little haven and play your little ego games. The big city is probably not for you.

In 32 years I've never "lost my cool," and my ejection last weekend of the head coach was another example of an ejection where I didn't lose my cool. He swore at me; I ejected him. He went chest-to-chest with me yelling and screaming, but I didn't return the favor. I simply wrote down on my lineup card the information needed in my report to be submitted later that day.

If ejecting someone is "losing your cool," then I feel sorry for you as an umpire, because your lack of reality is shocking.

Even if his team is kicking the ball around, I think he still has the right to come out and say that he thinks you missed it...it's different if he's blaming you for the outcome of the game, then you can point out the errors...but if you miss a call whether or not his team as 10 errors or zero errors, we shouldn't umpire any differently right? IMO, if we miss one, we can't illogically say, "well, your team is kicking the ball around and I don't hear you yelling at them..." while you might be right, overall, that approach isn't good coaching. If there defense is that bad, coach will let them know.

Don't get me wrong, I get what you're saying, but there's no logic there...in comparing defensive sucess to whether or not your call was correct.

You didn't lose your cool that time. You were admittedly baiting him by being sarcastic and verbose on that particular occasion. I am referring to a general climate that is worsened by certain umpires who are thin skinned or temperamental.

Shocking lack of reality ...

You are a very amusing small-town veteran. Keep up with the baiting and the sarcasm; I'll keep up with the decorum and control. I like my results better.

Small town??? Son, the fact that you believe the Chicago Metropolitan area is a small-town environment only serves to prove your lack of understanding reality.

Oh, and simply asking a head coach when I should call a balk is not being verbose. He told me I couldn't call a balk. I asked him under which situations it is acceptable to call one. He then swore at me. I appropriately ejected him.

You just can't accept the fact that I am still successful as a college umpire, despite having a few ejections per year.

That's new information, then. I know the OP said you turned and the HC was already there, but now it's clarified that he came roaring out. And that he's screaming. (Not trying to be pedantic, but you seem to have detailed it more at this point.)

I'm hoping that wasn't directed at my query, although I realize I started the sh!tstorm here. I'm not asking about your game mgmt, and I don't think I was being sanctimonious. When I read the OP, I just felt "that didn't seem right to me," and that it read as though you baited him into that. Sure, he swore at you, so you ran him. But don't you think your responses from the start channeled his Force/karma/ki right into the EJ? I do. And I'm not alone, either. It's not as simple as your latest post: "I asked him under which situations it is acceptable to call one." I'm sure that's what the EJ report read, but still.

(And isn't more swearing allowed the older/higher level it goes? Or is the NCAA like high school about it?)

And my original point is: if one of us, that haven't been accepted into the Internet Forum Umpire Inner Sanctum, told that same story as posted, we'd be ripped 7 ways to Sunday for it, because we baited the HC. And we'd get told how we'll never work above middle school, or some other d@mn thing, and how we needed to work on our game management.

So maybe as a successful college umpire, you'd consider taking that on board.

The post you made describing exactly what you said detailed an encounter in which you were verbose.

I couldn't care less about your "success." You unprofessionally baited a coach and then ejected him. Then you posted it and bragged about it. That puts you in your place and you did it yourself. You can defend your lack of restraint and professionalism all you like, it's still not the way most umpires choose to operate, and your results demonstrate why.

Well, yes, some folks need runnin', just like some folks need killin', but let them run themselves.

And I don't think it's about being 'niiiiiiice' for the 'modern umpire.' It's about being a professional. Look, I'm not in the aforementioned Internet Umpire Forum Inner Sanctum(tm) (IUFIS in future postings), and I haven't worked a real college game, nor have I hit 1,000 games, never mind multi-thousands. But I'm trying to take it, and my games, seriously. And for what it's worth, I'm an '08 JEA grad, and we weren't taught to bait, and get the last word, and all that. They were teaching professionalism, even if the guys in the dugouts aren't. So that's where I approach it from.

You're not being pedantic. I probably neglected to specify it and did so in follow-up posts. Yes, I turned and found him at the dirt area of home plate, but this was because he had bolted out of the dugout to get there and begin his yelling at me.

I'd prefer not to take on a board as you mention. I may offer advice to some here or elsewhere, but I choose to not rip people apart as being unprofessional, and I choose to not degrade people to imply that they're terrible umpires and I'm somehow the world's greatest. I'm not; I'm human. I have been successful at what I do, and I'd like to think one reason, among others, is that I continually work to tweak or improve things, adopt to new things, and more.

BTW, yes, I included on the umpire's report exactly what was said by the head coach and me and what led up to it. The conference and/or school will handle it. It's not like it's considered a major incident, fortunately.

Perhaps you ought to look up the definition of the word "brag," because I certainly did not "brag." My purpose of the thread was to simply have a laugh at a change in the balk rule insofar as when one should or should not be called.

I'd bet five bucks your sense of humor is also virtually nonexistent, especially off the field.

Based on the level of acumen you have displayed here, you must lose a lot of five-dollar bets.

You baited the coach; you bragged about it; then you changed your story to make the encounter seem justified. That's fine; you already openly and fully displayed that you play a lot of games. Maybe you should wonder why so many coaches swear at you, and not what less-than-clever routine you're going to throw out there when they do.

Uhm, to be fair, I'd have to say I don't think he bragged about it. It was a story, and it ended up being a story with multiple themes, it turns out. And one of those themes was how coaches want certain things called differently depending on game situation.

(Interesting how a coach will b!tch that your zone is changing as the game goes on, but yet pull a gem like the OP?

"How can you call that NOW???"

"Easily, actually.")

Anyway, I just disagree with UMP25 about what led to EJ, because I don't think I would have done it the same way. The more games I get, I just might, because I have a sarcastic bent to begin with, and I figure one day that beast will get released. And I just wanted to point out that the lesser knowns would have copped a bigger spray than he did - just one of them things.

But I don't think the intent was to show us the scalp he took.

You know, Hokie, you have a fair-mindedness about you that is refreshing at the very least and wholly worth emulating at the very most.

What I saw as bragging or boasting may well have been an honest and generous attempt at making us all avoid becoming coach-baiters.

Just soak in the hypocrisy, folks.

And what is hypocritical?

He's not qualified to judge me as a baseball man based on the sense of judgment he has put on display here. What are you missing?

You'd be wrong, but that's nothing new.

"So many"? Who knew that a mere two (and both coaches this year just happened to be coaches who were very frustrated with their teams' performances, each coming off lengthy losing streaks*) in the last 4+ years would be "a lot"? I see mathematics wasn't your strong suit either.

*Of course, this playing a part is something you wouldn't understand, I'm sure.

Thanks!
 

I just feel the need to thank everyone who has been posting in this thread. It is a long day at work (the "real" kind, not the "fun wearing blue" kind) and this back-and-forth is just humorous enough to keep me going until the close of business. :p

And I can respect that statement, because I'm not saying one should take a specific course of action. As I said earlier, the point of this whole thread was NOT to recommend a course of action when trying to figure out when to eject a head coach; rather, it was to laugh here, in this officials' forum, over what I (and many of my peers) found to be a humorous contention by said head coach.

Now, Hokie, an umpire faced with a coach who's screaming, "You can't call a balk in a big game like this," or "You can't call a balk in this situation," or similar statements is left with a variety of options on how to respond--if at all.

If I ignore said coach, Kevin would probably claim I was being smug and indignant. If I would've replied inquisitively, "Then when can I call a balk, Joe (not the coach's real name)?" or "Why not, Joe?" or something similar, Kevin would have scolded me still, claiming that I was baiting the coach.

I never intended to bait the coach; I merely wanted HIM to tell ME when, based on his claims, I COULD call a balk. There was no reason for him to swear at me and make it personal; I would not have ejected him had he said the call was brutal, or that it stunk, or that I call too many balks, etc.

I just happened to be the umpire who, in less than two weeks time, had on his schedule teams that had run up losing streaks, which, as most of us know, tend to cause head coaches to get closer to that breaking point. In fact, the head coach whom I ejected a couple weeks ago, was rumored to "have lost it," "gone off his rocker," "facing mutiny from his players," "went nuts,"--all comments that his fellow head coaches in the area had said about him. But I digress.

Glad we can make your day that much more enjoyable. It's easy to do when one debates bland, humorless individuals. It's kinda like when my mother and I talk. :D

I have been trained as a trauma/crisis counselor and facilitate debriefings for police & fire depts after shootings, accidents, chases, etc. In tense situations, each word can literally be life or death, and I have learned to choose my words carefully in that setting (but not always in this forum!).
Since my training, I have tried to use the same tactics in umpiring, and that is when my ejections ebbed.

There has been some good points brought out in this discussion.
No umpire should let a player or coach swear at them. Anyone who does and doesn't take care of that won't be respected.
Coaches can't argue balls and strikes. If they do, they are looking to be shown the gate.
Umpires should not bait coaches into an ejection. If an umpire craves the adrenaline rush of an ejection enough to bait a coach into it, he has crossed the ethical line, imho.

As far as all the other accusations in this thread... if this was a real game, somebody would have been ejected by now. :)

I think the umpire in Major League II said it best, "That's it you're outta here! All'a ya'!"

My only point was that if you have umpired for any length of time, an ejection of a coach would be inevitable and unavoidable. This leads me to believe that Kevin has not worked as many games as I previously thought. And for the record, I usually agree with what he says, as I think in most cases he is right. But, I still stand by my comment that never having ejected a coach is most certainly not something to boast about, or be particularly proud of. If you are a new official, then I can understand that statement, but not from a veteran of many a season. Either the coaches in Kevin's area are all gentlemen and scholars, with never a harsh word uttered, or someone's not takin' care of bidness. It has to be one of the two.

Probably the former, which would explain this utopian world in which he umpires. Where IS this place? I'm booking the next flight out! :D

Please make up your mind how many ejections you are making.

Hmmm,
 

Let's step back and look at Kevin in a slightly different light:

As I have posted over the years in my first 3,000 games I have 314 ejections.

No one can say that is too few or too many . . . you had to be there.

In my last 1,000 games I had fewer than 10.

Let's look at me as an example:

Over the last 6 season I have had two ejections (the same assistant coach twice).

Other than that I have maybe had ONE COACH perseason even come out to argue (the say talk) with me.

Am I that much better of an umpire.

Heck NO!

As my friend Mark puts it: "Tim you can get away with stuff just because who you are . . . all the coaches know you and recognize that to come out to talk to you will not get them anywhere AND they respect you because your OLD!"

Maybe Kevin has work A LOT of games (not a few) and maybe he is the kind of guy that coaches recognize because they have seen him often.

Don't just toss him out (pun intended) because he has little action in on field arguments.

Kevin could just be good, respected and known as a guy you don't go after.

My original statements are correct. I've had two head coaches in 4+ years. The other ejections were players.

As I am probably considered, Tee.

Earlier in my career, I probably averaged 12-15 ejections per year. As time went by and my career got longer, as I advanced through the various levels of umpiring, the number of ejections I would have each season slowly declined, yet the number of games I had remained fairly consistent--usually 150 or so each year.

I am capable enough of knowing that when I step onto a field, the players and coaches don't fear me; they respect me. Respect, of course, must be earned--it's not deserved--and I believe that I have, indeed, earned this respect for several reasons.

Similarly, my ejection rate has fallen over the years. Early on, I was taught to establish myself as one who will not take any crap. It was rough going, but as the years went on, I was approached by my peers who stated that I had "calmed down" when in reality, it was the coaches who learned that if they didn't irritate me, they could stay in the game.

Some of you say that it is a great feeling when you can walk off a field and not be remembered. I prefer to walk onto the field and have older coaches tell the younger assistants "If you screw with this guy, you are on your own!".

Was I a red-a$$? In my day, yes I was. I did what I had to do, that was the way the system worked then so I adapted to it.

You just don't get it. That isn't your problem. If the guy deserves to be ejected then eject him. Just because the league you are working in wants to end the game after an ejection or issue mandatory fines or suspensions it should not change how you do things.

Tee is trying to see your side of it; possibly you don't have situations arise which require ejections very often. Obviously that is not the case as you admit to having the mindset that ejections are bad.

I've always maintained that ejections are neither good nor bad. They just are.

Different parts of the country have different ejection rates, too. I don't know why. I'm not that smart.
I have a buddy who was a partner for several years. We did high school and college baseball, and he got me into college fastpitch for a few years. We had our share of ejections over the years, but nothing out of the ordinary.

He got a job transfer last year and moved about 7 hours away. Told me on the phone a few nights ago that he's been averaging about one per week where he is now. He said coaches want to argue everything and aren't content until they are shown the door.

He must have a huge ego then.

:D

20+ yr vet who doesn't run coaches unless they need it. He didn't seem to be losing any sleep over it.

This makes sense. I see some of your ejection rates and am mystified, to be honest. I can count my ejections on one hand over a 12 year period. I don't personally think I get "run all over," it just seems to be a calmer brand of baseball where I'm at. Then again, I don't work near the amount of games some do either. I can only think of maybe 2 or 3 times where I could have pulled the trigger and didn't.

So, you, in an attempt to sound fair, state that you have a total of 314+ ejections total, and you don't find it just a bit odd that an experienced, seasoned veteran umpire wouldn't have one single coach ejection?

A lot of coaches recognize and respect me, and are happy as clams to see me coming, yet find a way to get ejected now and then. To not have any ejections at all is just a bit odd, and to use it as a selling point of one's skills is disingenous.

Doubtful. He has never given anyone a reason not to go after him. Never.

I have yet to meet an umpire with upper levek experience who could or would boast of never ejecting a skipper or an assistant.

Most likely KF is a youth ball umpire with a good library.

Possibly. But I find that the ejection rate is higher at the lower levels (as the coaches haven't learned how to talk to the umpires.)

I think the numbers can only be compared within a relatively small geographic area and at the same level -- and then if you have a number that is "extreme" on either end of the spectrum , you need to consider whether that means some changes are needed.

You have already proven yourself here and freely demonstrated the limited scope of your thinking. If you can't see it or imagine it, it comes as no surprise.

I have skills and a background in baseball and in life that naturally come into use when it is time to deal with an angry or frustrated coach, who often takes on the character of a child. I rise above the childishness quickly, change the tone quickly and arrest the situation quickly before it gets bad. If you lack the skills or imagination or strength or maturity or patience or life experience to accomplish that from situation to situation, then be what you are and continue to operate the way you do. Booting coaches probably gets you off somehow. Rising above the nonsense rather than adding to it is what satisfies me.

Just out of curiosity, what do you do when a rule violation specifically calls for an ejection? Do you then ignore the rule just to boast that you are continuing your never having ejected someone?

Well, the first time a coach comes out and hollers, "you suck," you damn sure better eject him. I don't want to hear how you let him stay in the game so the game wouldn't end.

Were you wearing your cool blue contacts or your red 'devil' set?

No.

And I also never baited a coach, so I never had that type of situation arise either.

I have never had a coach yell that or anything of the sort.

Then come down to San Diego for a couple of weeks and you will.

[big grin icon]

I'm still waiting to see just where this utopian baseball world is located.

I didn't ask that. Stick to the question at hand and stop baiting people.

Either you have never had a coach who violated a rule that specifies an ejection--something no one here would probably believe if you've been umpiring a while; or you're not being completely truthful. I give benefit of the doubt, so I don't think it's the latter.

Never has a coach thrown, kicked or said anything that makes an ejection mandatory. A few players have, and they were tossed without warning and without reservation.

AND, if I did have such a violation and did not eject, don't you think somebody would hear about it and some action would be taken? It always is when others overlook such things. I don't have that rep. Instead, I get high marks and better games, and even the schools with the more troublesome coaches and crowds, mostly because of my problem-solving and emergency handling skills and record. I have been sent to schools where I am told that the coach was going to eat me alive. I usually instead get thanked for working so hard and calling such a fair, consistent game. It happened again yesterday. I hear stories at meetings about certain coaches that are abominable. In my dealings with those same coaches, it seems like they are different people altogether than the ones that other umpires described in their ejection stories.

I'm fair, honest, punctual, knowledgeable, authoritative, dedicated, reliable, consistent, thick-skinned and vastly experienced at this game in several capacities, including playing, coaching and scouting. My uniform is always fresh, pressed and flawless and my equipment always shines. And I hustle at all times. My respect for the game has no bounds and most coaches notice that rather early if they don't know me already. I do everything I possibly can to be a respectable umpire and baseball man, and any respect and cooperation I get is partly or mostly a result of that. I also gain respect and future cooperation when I defuse a potentially volatile situation and resolve it without a spectacle.

I have a total baseball background and managerial background and not just an umpiring background. I know the game from every angle and I know the local game rather fully. So maybe all of that makes me less of a target.

Now after all of this, I'll probably have to run somebody for dumping a bucket of balls, or kicking dirt on my shoes. You'll all be the first to know about it.

I share the same experiences to which you allude in your second paragraph. Consequently, I wouldn't doubt that if we were on the same crew our games would progress quite happily and without incident.

I would not doubt it either.

As long as you control your sarcasm. ;)

Do I detect a bit of sarcasm there???

;)

May you be the first to know:

Before I get started, I am not making this up.

I had a league rivalry type of game today and the home team's pitcher--a gigantic kid who throws a good fastball and a telegraphed, but tight slider--is getting torched. I hear this loudmouth blathering about a couple of close pitches, and at the end of the inning, he comes on the field and I see that it's an assistant coach. So I put the guy in the dugout and order him not to say another word for the rest of the day.

The guy screams at me, and I toss him! It's like it was set up! My partner said, "Didn't you say you've never tossed a coach?" My chairman said, "You tossed a coach??!! Well, you picked the right guy for the first one."

He was the pitcher's "former professional pitcher" dad (why do they have that going on?), who's also huge, but fortunately very stupid. He had to be physically removed, and in L.A., there are a whole lot of schools who have L.A.P.D. right on the campus at all times, and this was one of those schools, so there were no leaving-in-one-piece concerns.

What an embarrassing fool that guy was. And I have to say, I didn't give him a big wave. I said, "You're an assistant coach; you are in the dugout the rest of the ballgame and not another word." Then he screamed his former pro crap, and I said, "Those are words; you're gone." Then I walked away and told the head coach that he's gone and asked him the details while the other coaches and an administrator pulled the guy off the field.

It felt good, actually. You guys were right. I didn't just toss to get it done, it was a major breach and a big, out-of-control blowhard making it. There were apologies all around for the blowhard, and my partner gave a major thumbs up report on the whole thing.

The baseball gods are, indeed, on my side. I knew it all along.

:D

The gods sent the biggest blowhard I've ever even seen.

The gods were listening to me, their humble servant.

Kevin I think you jinxed yourself! :d. May I offer you my congrats? :)

I remember losing my cherry too! Way to go! Actually, I sent the guy up there from San Diego. We have a surplus of blowhards around here!

He was just like some of the guys you have described! :D

Thanks, Welpe!

I am not normally dumb enough to put jinxes out there. And it was my very next plate game for crying out loud!

You know, I'm glad you started all of this. :D

Always willing to help. :)