Obstruction/Interference/Nothing???Discuss
 

This play did not occur (so I cant tell you how it was ruled on the field), but was watching a game and it was one of those almost happened plays.

Bases loaded, 2 outs. Batter hits a swinging "bunt" that rolls down first base line. As the runner and catcher make their way down the line approaching the ball the pitcher also converges. As the catcher picks up the ball, the pitcher runs into the batter/runner causing him (b/r) to fall in to the catcher, who then goes to the ground with the b/r (no tag has taken place-or add a tag if you like since it is a discussion) and loses control of the ball. The ball then rolls into a dead ball area. Were do you start and what is your ruling..

I have discussed this particular play scenario with the infamous (Ump)JJ and will post what we agreed on later.

umpjong:

Ask yourself this question: What occured first? Answer: The obstruction by the pitcher. Everything that happens after that is moot, because the obstruction by the pitcher caused everything else to happen.

MTD, Sr.

I concur with MTD - as described, this is obstruction on the pitcher.

Under OBR, this would be "Type A" obstruction, the ball is dead, the BR awarded 1B. Since the ball is derad immediately and the catcher had possession of the ball at the time of the obstruction, the ball entering DBT is disregarded.

Under FED it's still obstruction on the pitcher, but the ball remains in play. The contact with the catcher is "incidental" and the BR is awarded 2B on the ball going out of play.

JM

You don't think 8-3-2 gives the umpire the latitude to make it a 1-base award?

dash,

No, I don't believe it does, simply because the ball went out of play.

I would say the award under 8-3-2 is ONLY 1B, but the two base award for the ball going out of play (8-3-3c) "supercedes" the one base award on the obstruction.

JM

Agreed.

JM & Bob,

I understand your point, but since the ball would not have gone out of play absent the obstruction (at least that would be my judgment), I'm ignoring it and awarding 1 base only.

There is nothing in FED that requires the umpire to give effect to everything that happens after the violation. In fact, in a delayed dead ball situation (such as this one), the ball becomes dead when the umpire calls time to make the award (see 5-1-3 and 5-2-1-f), which may or may not coincide with when the ball rolls out of play.

I think 8-3-2 requires the umpire to ignore the ball rolling into DBT if, in his judgment, it wouldn't have happened absent the OBS.

I am stretching, and can find nothing to support this question, but, in Fed, could the awards be cumulative?

Since he is awarded 1B on the obstruction, could the 2B award for the ball going out of play be measured from there?

Let's change the play and have a base hit to the wall in left center with R1. The batter is obstructed as he rounds 1st heading for 2nd, and has to retreat to 1st. The relay throw from the SS to the catcher goes out of play. You are certain the batter would have obtained 2nd prior to the SS's throw had he not been obstructed.

Where would you place the batter?

Blue37,

There is no "cumulative property of addition" with regard to base awards in baseball under any rule code. When two events occur during a play that specify a base award, the one more advantageous to the offense is enforced.

JM

I had an "on the field board meeting" with myself and we conclude that in both OBR & FED, there is obstruction by F1 and it is delayed TIME (as always in FED). Once play has ceased, in this case everyone in a heap, TIME is called and:

• OBR = the base or bases that in the umpire's opinion would nullify the obstruction.
• FED = a minimum of 1 base award then same as OBR.

In both cases, there is no way that the batter-runner would have made it past 1st so that is where I am placing him.

As far as the ball going out of bounds, it never happened because TIME was called due to the cessation of play (see above). Also, it was F1 who caused the obstruction, not F2 so there was no play being made on the batter-runner, yet. This makes it Type B, not Type A.

Dash made the right call, people!

ozzy,

Under OBR, a BR obstructed before reaching 1B is ALWAYS "Type A", regardless of whether a play is being made on him.

Under OBR, that's an immediate dead ball (so the ball going out of play "never happened"), aand the BR gets 1B.

Under FED, you keep the ball in play until it enters DBT. Then you kill it and award runners 2 bases. It was the DEFENSE'S actions that were the root cause of the ball going out of play. No way I'm "bailing them out" by making the "lesser" of the two awards resulting from the action of the play.

JM

well, it's not an immediate dead ball in any case ! only if an IF has an "easy play" on the batted ball (J/R). what if the ball was hit into CF and F8 would have caught the ball after your time call ? ... award the BR first base ? that's an out !

Agree about OBR and FED.

The last part was going to be my answer to dash: true, the obstruction led to everything else, including the ball going out of play. But the obstruction was a violation by the DEFENSE: if the coach complained about a 2-base award, I would tell him to have his players skip the obstruction next time.

I don't think you have to do that. See 5-1-1-h, 5-1-3, and 5-2-1-f

See also 5.1.2 A (Case Book) and (perhaps most importantly), the last sentence of 8-3-2: "If an award is to be made, the ball becomes dead when time is taken to make the award."

Bruno,

If the batter hits a fly ball which is subsequently caught, the obstruction is disregarded. So if the batted ball is "in flight" when the BR is obstructed, I would call the Obstruction, but I would not kill it.

I have no idea where you're getting this "...easy play by an infielder..." nonsense, but it is nonsense.

JM

I don't think the rules preclude you from the 2-base award. I also don't think the rules preclude me from killing the play before the ball enters DBT and making it a 1-base award. I'm going with Plan B.

5-1-1h: calling time to inspect the ball. Relevance?

5-1-3: call time to make awards for obstruction. Does not supersede the fact that all OBS in FED is "type B" -- delayed dead ball.

5-2-1f: time is called by the umpire to make base awards or inspect the ball. Relevance?

The proper method of handling OBS is delayed dead ball and wait till the end of playing action. See this case play (different situation, cited only for proper mechanic for OBS).

In the OP, playing action ended with the ball entering DBT. If you kill it first, you're doing it wrong (well, FED-wrong, which might not be baseball-wrong ;) ).

In fact, not only do we NOT bail out the defense by awarding just 1 base here, the ENTIRE RATIONALE for the ball remaining live is to allow the defense to make an even worse mistake so that the offense gets a better award. In this case they did.

Dash,

You are employing "backwards logic".

The pertinent rules for determining "when" to kill it to make the award are:

2-22-1 ...When obstruction occurs, the ball becomes dead at the end of playing action....

and

2-29-1 ...a unit of action which ... ends when ball becomes dead or pitcher again holds the ball while in pitching position

If there is a "loose ball" on the field and viable runners, the playing action has not ended.

JM

5-1-2b
 

FED 5-1-2b: It is a delayed dead ball when a catcher or any fielder obstructs a batter or runner.

Doesn't say the ball can't become dead before then. And I still go back to 8-3-2: "...the umpire shall award the obstructed runner and each other runner affected by the obstruction the bases they would have reached, in his opinion, had there been no obstruction..."

Had there been no obstruction, the ball would never have entered DBT. I think that permits me to disregard the 2-base award.

I'm off to the doc, back later. This is a good one.

Larger context
 

Preceding wording in 8-3-2: "When obstruction occurs, the umpire gives the delayed dead ball signal and calls 'obstruction.'"

Backward logic again, dash. The guideline of "what would have happened" applies only to the question of where to put the runners. Since the base award in the OP is NOT for obstruction, but for sending the ball into DBT, this guideline is moot.

Why are you so eager to protect the defense from their own violations? Haven't they committed 2 in the OP?

Fed 8-1-1 E
 

A batter becomes a runner [...] when...

E. the catcher or any other defensive team player obstructs him. The coach or captain of the team at bat, after being informed by the UIC of the obstruction, shall indicate whether or not he elects to decline the obstruction penalty and accept the resulting play. [...] Obstruction of the batter is ignored if the batter-runner reaches first and all other runners advance at least one base.

I want to say that you let the play go. Kill it when the ball goes to DBT and then give the coach/captain the option of 1st (obstruction) or 2nd (ball to DBT) for the batter.

gfgartland,

Please tell me you're kidding.

The rule you are referencing has NOTHING to do with the play in question because the batter has ALREADY become a runner prior to the obstruction occurring.

JM

I felt, if for nothing else but context, that it was best to place the entirety of the rule that I was citing. The information that should be gleaned from it is that it is not our decision to make. The coach/captain decides where he wants his runner.

This might also open up lines of thinking (beyond OP) in regards to other runners on at the time.

gfgartland,

Stop it man, you're killing me!

Have you ever actually umpired a baseball game?

Ever seen one?

I can't believe you are this clueless.

Uhh... what exactly does being "Assistant Chief Umpire" entail, anyway? Just curious.

JM

Apology
 

I apologize. I don't know what the heck I was thinking while I was writing that, and then defending it too! Looking back I see that I am referencing something completely different. We all make mistakes, and I am big enough to admit mine.

As some side notes: 1. Yes, in fact I have umpired a baseball game or two. 2. I have seen a couple, in person even. 3. Assistant Chief Umpire means that I have to umpire games just like any other ump in the league, assist in training (both of umpires and coaches) deal with any questions that come up in the course of a season (from anyone umpire, coach, league director or parent), and mess around with paperwork to make sure that things work smoothly.

Grant,

Well, that's different! Never mind.

Please accept my apology for the excessive sarcasm in my previous post. I was a bit nonplussed by your assertion.

John

That is compelling, I admit.
It has if the umpire has killed the play to make a base award. And yes, I appreciate your (anticipated) response that killing the play would be contrary to 2-29-1.

Read the rest of 5-1-1h (C'mon mb, keep it honest)

See above.

I think it is to allow the offense to achieve additional bases (other than through an award) that would cause the OBS to be ignored, and the ball to remain live, and maybe even result in outs for the defense.

Because I believe (as in OBR), the spirit of the rule is for the umpire to do whatever it takes to negate the act of obstruction. What would have happened absent the OBS? F2 probably throws the B/R out at first. I think a 1-base award is fair enough.

Let me try one last thing: What if you judged that the runner supplied the impetus that caused the ball to enter DBT? Would that change things?

Anyway, thanks for the debate mb & JM. The reason I'm here is guys like youse (note my location).

Other possibilities?
 

This all depends on how you are viewing the actions from the OP in your mind. What if the B/R stops/ducks/jumps out of the way and F2 & F1 collide/bounce off each other thus causing the ball to come out and go to DBT?

On yet another tangent (sorry, I need to get this out of my head now) what if the B/R gets up quickly and is right at first and appers to be attempting to go to 2nd as the ball rolls slowly to DBT?

Possibly, but that would be a very different case. Two possibilities:

1. unintentional deflection by BR: no change in ruling (still the defense's fault for losing control of the ball).
2. intentional deflection by BR: interference, ball's dead, runners return.

Please correct me if I am wrong in my thinking, but the way that I am seeing this there are 2 incidents occurring in 1 action, each incident needs to be addressed separately.

Incident 1: F1 obstructs B/R.

Award B/R 1st at end of playing action, unless they acquire it themselves.

Incident 2: Ball entering DBT.

Award B/R 2-bases from time of pitch.

BR out ?
"runners return" to TOP-base ?
can the BR be guilty of interference after the time call ?

Yes, BR out on the interference. Runners return to TOI base.

Time is not called after the OBS in USA high school ball, so interference is a possibility.

In OBR, this would be Type A obstruction, which is an immediate dead ball. In that case, obviously there's no possibility of interference (or the ball rolling into DBT either).

This is what JJ and I agreed on. Also NCAA same as Fed on this one..... (actually we [JJ and I] did not speak of the Pro ruling, but I would agree with you on that also.)