Why we umpires love baseball coaches--Part I.
 

I had a boys' H.S. jr. varsity baseball game last night (NFHS Rules). My partner is a good umpire and is the type you would go to "war" with if you get my drift and the bottom of the second (Part I)and the tops of the third and fourth innings (Parts II and III, respectively) were those types if innings. I am the PU and my partner is the BU, obviously.

Part I: One out, R1 on first. F1 delivers his first pitch (R1 breaks for second with the pitch) to B2 (who is a lefty), which is high and outside, but B2 swings, makes contact with the ball, and the ball goes directly back to F2 who catches it cleanly in his glove. While I am giving the foul tip signal and signaling a strike (I use the point signal, :D) F2 fires the ball toward second base but the throw sails wide right of the base, behind R1 going toward second, and is caught by F4.

F2's throw causes my partner to turn so that his back is to the third base line. While F2's throw is headed toward F4, the third base coach (the Head Coach for the Home team) yells "foul ball"; R1 immediately stops about three feet short of second base and turns around and starts to walk back toward first base. My partner (Who told me during our soon to be conference in the middle of the infield, that he was sure of two things: 1) That I had signaled a foul tip and strike before he turned to watch for a possible tag, And, 2) he was suprised to hear me call out "foul ball", and that is why he pointed to First base and told R1 to return to first base.) pointed to first base and told R1 to return to first base, he then turned back to me at which point I called out in a voice loud enough for the infielders to hear: the ball is still live. This caused F4 to immediately tag R1 who was still walking back to first base, who was promptly called out by my partner.

Of course HC-Home was not happy because my partner had told R1 to return to first base. Which prompted the following conversation:

HC-Home: Your partner told my runner to go back to first base.

Me: The ball remains live on a foul tip.

HC-Home: But you made the foul ball signal with your hands your partner told my runner to go back to first base.

Me: I gave the foul tip signal after which I gave the strike signal; I never called out "foul ball".

HC-Home: But your partner told my runner to go back to first base after he had already reached second base.

Me: My partner had his back to us in order to watch for a possible tag when you yelled "foul ball". You yelling "foul ball" does not cause the ball to become dead. You yelling "foul ball" put your player in jeapordy, not anything my partner or I did or did not do. Your player is out and we are going to play baseball.

MTD, Sr.

How about pointing to 1st and telling the runner to return? You don't think that put him in jeopardy?

If I ever heard a call of "foul ball," I would be pretty sure it didn't come from an umpire.

Sorry, there is no way the kid should be called out.

Why do you guys talk so much?

BU should keep his mouth shut and make his calls. He has no business telling runners where to go, especially when he saw his partner call a foul tip.

PU should keep his mouth shut and make his calls. He has no business telling the players when the ball is live.

If there's any confusion after the play, call time and discuss it. If the coach sends his runner back and he's tagged out, that's entirely on the coach.

Given what actually happened: FED wants umpires to fix any situations that arise because an umpire's mistake put a runner in jeopardy. In this case, that would mean and rescinding the out and putting R1 on 2B, where he clearly would have been safe without the umpires' (plural) involvement in the play.

Agreed (but less harshly on the umpire). I never tell the runner to return to second on a foul ball, they figure it out. If I see the other umpire call foul ball, I may repeat "foul ball" to save the runner some steps but it's not common for me to say anything.

-Josh

I guess I might have sounded harsh. From what I've read on here, MTD is a good umpire, and I was astonished that he participated in these rookie follies.

Coaches are wonderful aren't they. But FED does give us the tools (by rule book) to fix any situation in which an umpire puts the runner in jeopardy so in this situation you can fix the problem.

Now if the coaches yells it and the player goes back, that's entirely on the coach and I'm not going to bail him out.

Thanks
David

Unfortunately the umps screwed up on this one...ideally, if BU was not sure...the BU should've either done nothing or asked PU if he had foul ball or foul tip...then sent the runner back...if it was a foul ball, PU would've noticed that R1 was standing on 2B and sent him back...BU probably heard the 3rd base coach yell foul ball, and w/o really thinking about it, in good faith told the runner to go back to 1B....that being said, in my mind, this is an easy, easy, easy fix. Umps call time...put R1 back on 2B. That's "getting the play right" which is why we're there to umpire. Then, post game on it w/o busting anybody's balls since we can all make mistakes and that one was an easy one to fix. Umpires should read other umpires...not what the coaches are telling their players...that being said, I'm not perfect either.

BU was certain it was a foul tip, and he saw F2 release the throw. There was no reason to react to the "foul ball" call. The ball is live. Stay with the ball.

He must not have been too sure being that he pointed a runner back to 1B...either that or BU doesn't know the rule...if he said he heard one thing and then did another, he couldn't have been too sure...that's my point...if he went through the process stated in the OP, and he's decided that he's going to get involved, keep the runner on the base, ask PU to confirm his call...on a foul ball, you can always return the runner because it was an uncaught foul ball. I'm not busting anybody's chops here...I'll be the first to admit that my mind has made a call and my body signaled something else...but the umps screwed up here (well, BU screwed up)...this is also an easy one to fix...you can't call the runner out here when BU tells the runner foul ball...easy fix...keep R2 at 2B

That being said, I agree with your post except for the "BU was certain part"

The OP stated that BU was sure of the foul tip and strike call before he turned to the play at 2nd base..

Correct...but if BU was "sure" why did he send the runner back to 1B? He either didn't know for sure as he stated or he doesn't know the rule.

[QUOTE]This is NFHS rules therefore, check out case play 10.2.3E which is similar to your OP.

Ruling: The umpire TELLING the runner to go back to first base placed that team at a disadvantage and the umpire needs to fix.

In this situation the runner should have been allowed to stay at first base.

Do not know if your state has protest procedures (here in NY we do) but the coach should have protested the game based upon a misapplication of rule 10-2-3L, UNLESS the score was out of hand where it would have made no difference.

Pete Booth

So are you saying that not only does the batter have a strike, but offense loses a stolen base on the foul tip? Would it be wrong to keep R1 at 2B since he had the base stolen?

I believe it would be up to the umpires judgment whether the running would have made it safely to 2b or not if the umpire did not make a mistake. HOWEVER, since the offense (ie HC @ 3b) caused the confusion I would consider that as well.

-Josh

In general this is correct. If we're still talking about the OP, 2 points are worth noting in deciding how to fix the matter:

1. R1 had the base stolen, and the throw was behind him to F4.
2. The BASE UMPIRE, having heard the coach, told him to return to 1B because it was a foul ball. (And he did that having seen his partner signal a foul tip and a strike -- blows my mind.)

To fix #2, take into account #1 and put R1 on 2B. The pitch was a strike. Play ball.

yep for sure...

I have to defend my partner in this case. I am known for have a pretty loud voice when necessary and the HC yelled "foul ball" pretty loud. It was a windy day, and my partner was sure that it was me yelling "foul ball". Remember, under NFHS rules, once an umpire declares a ball foul it is foul even if it is really fair. BUT, it was not an umpire that was yelling "foul ball", it was the HC. This whole fiasco started when the HC yelled "foul ball", and he put in runner in jeapordy (his runner stopped short of second base and turned back toward first base when his HC yelled "foul ball" not because my partner said anything to him, the runner was already heading back to first base) not my partner.

MTD, Sr.

okay, well in that case, we send R1 back to 1B...he never reached 2B...if BU doesn't say anything and just stays with the ball, you can call him out w/o any course of argument...tough sitch...he simply screwed up...just like everybody else on this board.

From your OP

For all practical purposes your partner thought that You said "Foul Ball" and acted accordingly by instructing R1 to retrun to first base where he was tagged out by the defense.


As stated in my original response your OP is similar to case play 10-2-3E and your partner's instruction to R1 is what placed R1 in jeopardy and therefore, the situation should have been rectified.

Pete Booth

IMO your partner screwed the pooch on this one. As stated he saw the foul tip. How could he not have known what direction the call of "foul" was coming from? The runner stopping and going back to first probably caused him to assume it came from you. I don't think I've ever instructed runners to go back on foul balls. If it's foul I just tell them it's foul. They know what to do.

In the interest of fixing this. I would put the runner back on first charge the strike and play on.

I have been reading all of the posts here and agree with the fact once the umpire tells the runner to go back, send the runner back and record the strike. Whose to say the runner would have turned around if he realized the coach is the only one calling "Foul ball"? He may have realized that and went to 2B safely but stopped b/c of the BU telling him it is foul.

I am still waiting for parts II and III.

I agree no out but I disagree putting him on second. In effect base umpire THOUGHT it was foul and acted accordingly. That being the case you either treat this sitch. as a foul ball OR you don't and have an out. Can't have it both ways. Put runner back on first and play on.

There must be a FED rule that allows you to change the status of runners if they are put out due to umpire's error. There is no such rule in OBR.

By rule, you can't treat this as a foul ball. The ball was not batted.

Michael,

Huh?!?!

Sure it was. It was a "foul tip" which, by definition is "..a batted ball...".

JM

Ok than you have an out.

There is a lesson to be learned.
 

Do not repeat something you did not originally call. This all would have been avoided if the umpire just called the play.

Peace

True, but there is precedent when a stealing runner was called "out" on ball 4, left the base, then was tagged again. The umpires put him back on second.

Okay, I've been gone, here is my question
 

MTD,

What did you do to the 3B coach/HC?

Did you consider putting him in the dugout, at least?

If you didn't, that's okay. But if the HC yelled so loud to get the BU's attention, then the HC needs some kind of correction here.

Not withstanding the negagive reaction to my partner ruling his runner out. I did not restrict him to the dugout because we DID call his runner out because he not my partner and I put his runner at risk. Everybody keeps forgeting that before my partner said a word to the runner, the runner stopped short of second base and started to return to first base when he heard his coach yell "foul ball". It is my humble opinion that the HC learned his lesson about keeping his mouth shut., and that the "foul tip" signal means just that and not foul ball.

MTD, Sr.

No one is forgetting. But, once your partner confirmed it to be a foul ball, he put the runner in jeopardy worse than the coach. The runner still had a chance to turn around. But, once the umpire says foul, what runner is going to question that?

My partner never said used the word "foul". The only person on the diamond that used the word "foul" was the HC.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. I understand what NFHS rules really want, but even when I go to the Pearly Gates and I am told that I am not good enough to get in and I then am turned away from Hades because Lucifer doesn't want me because he knows I WILL take over, I believe the punishment for the HC's crime was the "right" one.

Here, your partner TOLD R1 to go back to 1B. That is the equivalent to saying "It is a foul ball. Go back to 1B." Your partner put the runner in jeopardy when he confirmed it was a foul ball.

You're going to war for the wrong reason. You should have told your partner to verify before acting. He screwed up and your trying to defend the screw up. Simply let it be that he screwed up and move on. This is not a battle which can be won because your partner put the runner in jeopardy.

What about parts II and III?

he then turned back to me at which point I called out in a voice loud enough for the infielders to hear: the ball is still live. This caused F4 to immediately tag R1 who was still walking back to first base, who was promptly called out by my partner.

I have a slight issue with this as well. By calling this out, I think you also put the runner in Jeopardy. If you hadn't said a word, the defense might not have made a play.