Short Right Field.
 

I am just curious what would others do. This has happen to me twice this year that has not happened but maybe one other time in my career.

I was working the bases the other day and I called a player out on a pick off while standing in the B position, which my partner did not think was close at all. This was the first out of the inning and no other incidents in the inning. The inning ends and I go to short right field.

As I turn around, I see the coach of the team that was up to bat walking slowly out to right field.

He gets there and asks me what I feel it a very dumb question in a very calm voice, "Did he tag him?" To make a long story short, I did answer the question after I told him "I cannot believe you came out here for a play that happened early in the inning."

Now I am wondering is the becoming common for coaches to come to short right after the inning is officially over to discuss plays? How do you handle those situations if they occur? Would you just eject a coach for doing such a thing, or handle it in another way?

Peace

I do not feel there is a reason to eject him. He didn't make a scene about it or do anything to show you up. So, I'd leave that alone b/c it will cause undue issues for the rest of the game.

As far as coming out to you, I don't see a problem with that b/c nobody knows why he is coming to you and maybe, he didn't feel a need to hold up the game to ask this. He knew it wouldn't change the call so do it at a time which allows the game to proceed. I would have just told him the runner was tagged and I had an out.

I have not had a coach do this but I would not worry about it as long as he wasn't there to argue.

I think just because we retreat to short RF, that doens't mean that a coach can't come out and talk to us. It makes it a bit more tough, but if a coach isn't foaming at the mouth or making a scene, I'm going to listen to him as long as he's not delaying the game. You probably don't want the reputation of being unapproachable.

I have had this happen, and the best advice I can give is to simply answer his question in the most professional manner that you can. Yes it is odd, but usually being professional about it will be the end of it. If it isn't and he wants to make more of it, warn and eject.

I would add that in such an instance, if they appear to be coming out in a relatively non-confrontational manner, I will jog in to meet them for the discussion. Making them come all the way out to me makes it look like I am avoiding them or playing a power trip - which then starts the conversation off in a bad manner.

I think I would agree on a case-by-case basis.

That is kind of my take. I always go there no matter what happens in the inning. Unless I really need to talk to my partner for some reason, I am in short right field.

I also had more of a problem with this particular situation because it was well after the fact of the original call. I just do not find that very professional.

Peace

In situations like that...sometimes I will say that I don't remember that particular play...esp if it was a play that wasn't obviously a controversial one that I wouldn't forget. Sometimes a coach will come over in between innings and nicely ask where a certain pitch was on x batter...I will say...I have no idea...I don't remember a pitch from x batters ago. It usually ends right there. You never really owe coach an explanation, esp if it was from a play a while back...but you don't want to be seen as unapproachable...if he's being civil, listen to him, let him show that he's standing up for his team, and move on. Sometimes they just want to make a point to their players that they're sticking up for their team.

I agree with you when we talk about dealing with them when they are civil, but being approachable does not mean that all times are appropriate to discuss things. If we stop a coach from talking balls and strikes, are we not being approachable?

Peace

I think the umpire ultimately decides on what he's going to talk about or not. As you know, the rules prohibit arguing balls and strikes. If between innings a coach wants to ask me about a pitch or when I go to break up a mound visit, he asks about a pitch...I can decide how I want to answer the question...I may answer his question truthfully or I may simply say, we're not talking about balls and strikes...or anything in between. A lot of things depend on how I deal with the situation. Ultimately he may still feel that I'm unapproachable...and that might be okay. I don't want the coaches to feel like they can't talk to me, but I also need them to know not to confuse my open ear with weakness.

Rut, look at it this way. He has to walk all the way out there to talk to you. You get your jollies, then he has to walk all the way back while you get to just stand there!

Makes my day! :D

I will admit there was a little satisfaction he had to come all the way out of there. ;)

Peace

Was he trying this slow walk out and slow walk in to get more warm-up pitches for his pitcher? They use this ploy of nicely talking to you or asking questions when bringing in the relievers also, trying divert your attention from the number of warm-up pitches their pitcher is taking to get him any extra ones they can get. Never underestimate a rat.

That is unlikely considering I was the BU. I do not usually pay attention to warm-up pitches unless my partner is doing something. And even in RF I am not doing such a thing. If that was his motive, he talked to the wrong person for that.

Peace

Wait a minute. If I am HP umpire that pitcher gets 5 pitches or eight if he is new. This will be enforced even if his mother runs out on the field. (then again if its 10 year olds, never mind ,I won't go there)

There is nothing wrong with being approachable during a game, no matter where you are standing. Remember though, perception is in your favor here. That coach came all that way to make a point, just about any reason you toss him for at that point, he will look like the aggressor.

Your in a win-win situation.

But as much as you have the upper hand there, be professional.

I'd rather he visit me between innings than hold up the game.

If he wants to argue the last out of an inning, I might wait for a second until he starts coming towards me, then make him chase me all the way to right field. I might even alter my path to kick first base, then go as deep into right field as I can, or even go into right-center field; anything to make him run more. Then when he finally reaches me I might grin at him and say "you have a nice run?".

One of the reasons we go out into short RF is to get away from coaches at the end of a half inning. That way if they choose to come out to "talk" with us, they will appear to be the "instigator" or "aggressor" should the discussion escalate.
If they want to come out in this manner, I do not go meet them halfway. As others have said, I will answer their question as calmly and professionally as possible.

JJ

And offer them gum...........:D

For the record I did not know he was coming out to even have a conversation. I did not realize it until I was already in RF. The play that he was arguing was not the last out or the second out. I did not know there was an issue. And I told him, "I would have had more respect for you if you would have come out when the play happened." At the very least I could address the situation immediately, not several minutes later.

Exactly.

Peace

Why is it a respect issue? Nobody else knows what you're talking about.

Respect means a lot to me. If you know what you are doing as a coach, you do not come out in that situation in my opinion. The fact that this was a first year coach is telling. And the fact that no veteran coach would wait for several outs to debate a call. And yes, umpires have a right to have respect or not have respect for coaches.

Peace

Well sure coach, why else would I call him out?

It's not common to come out after a half inning to ask about an earlier out. In fact I don't recall that ever happening to me.

Sometimes coaches have other motivations for coming out. Last year I had the HC who was in the 3B box come down to me after I kept his batter in the box for not avoiding a pitch, and in fact leading his thigh into it. He says "You and I know he leaned into that pitch but his Dad is in the stands and I know he is going to chew on me if I don't come down here to say something to you about it, so please don't smile as I walk away, because all I want is him off my butt". His head was bobbing like he was making an argument but he was really satisfying another need.

I wouldn't question that; however, I do question what benefit is gained by sharing that opinion with the coach in a situation like this.

It isn't going to make things better and can only make things worse.

The benefit I got out of saying that, he did not come out there again for something stupid. He knew how I felt about the situation.

I feel we worry too much about what a coach thinks. Nothing got worse or drastically changed as a result of the exchange.

Peace

And hopefully, this first-year coach learned something that will make him a better coach. ;)

maybe/maybe not.

You are both right. And if you are not right, that is not my concern. ;)

If history is any indication, the next time I have him after this year might be never.

Peace

You know evryone like a little arse, but not many like a smart arse. Thats exactly what your doing here. Showing the coach how non-professional you really are. Un-called for.

I am going to be optimistic and say that he's joking with us here. At any rate, it is another of his amusing stories.

Hi Rut,

Had a similar situation. The Coach came out and I made him walk all the way out to me. When he got there I said What are you doing out here? He looked at me and without saying a word turned around and walked all the way back to the dugout. Only time it ever happened to me.

As I said it was the second time for me. It seems like this is the new thing. Maybe I should be more of a hardazz next time.

Peace

Try this it works for me when they want to discuss plays that happened earler in the game. I only deal in current events I'm not a history teacher.

I am having more of a problem with their actions not mine. I have no problem what I said to them or how I reacted to them. I was just wondering is this becoming an epidemic or acceptable practice across the country. As I said before, both situations the coaches did not come back and honestly I do not care what they think of me.

Peace

To me, this is appearing to be unapproachable. Thus, when they come out on a legitimate reason, they may not come out in a calm manner. They already have the impression that you will not be reasonable or will be a smart a$$ so why should they. This kind of attitude causes animosity towards you and all other umpires which follow. Now, none of us can have a good game b/c we have to wonder what the "jerk" umpire (as they will be referred to by the coach when he wants to tell us about him) has done to affect my game. And, if you think it doesn't affect the games to follow, you are sadly mistaken.

Again, I have no problem with them coming between innings. They are not holding up the game and are not making a scene. No one knows why they are out there. So, why do something which may trigger a scene? Simply answer the question and move on. No other remarks are warranted.

Well, it can't be a story if I said that I "would". If you don't want to share anything productive, please don't post in this thread. Unprofessional? No. I'm just not going to let a rat argue a judgment call without a little workout first.

Depends if they have a legit question or are trying to intimidate with a stupid request. If it is a judgment call it cannot be argued.

Rut I would do just what you did by telling them that it would be better to come out when the play happens. However I would not use the words "I would have more respect for you if..."

I have learned that they are going to think you are a jerk no matter what you do or say. I have had coaches come out and ask very legitimate questions and get upset when I actually answered their questions or told them what I saw. In my opinion you cannot win and I personally do not try to. I stopped doing that over 10 years ago (especially in baseball). And no, all times are not appropriate to come out and discuss plays and situations in my opinion. I am not going to discuss plays I did not get involved in or past situations. Why would I want to discuss a play that happened several outs ago? Do you think it is appropriate if we are in the 5th inning and a coach wants to come out and discuss a play from the 3rd inning? After all he is asking a question right? He was professional right?

Or what if they bring up a previous call to make a point about another call? That is appropriate for you to discuss? I will tell you that is not appropriate to me in any sport I officiating ever. It might not warrant action being taken like an ejection, but they will know about it if they are coming to me with that stuff.


Didn't cause a scene? Really? Why did the first base coach after he left ask me, "What was that all about?" He obviously raised the eyebrows of someone. And when I told him we wanted to know about the first out of the inning, he did not say a word.

BTW, the coach approached my partner and got a similar response to suggest he should not have done such a thing or at the very least it looked bad. His question was also a stupid one. He asked me "Did he tag him?" What other reason would I have called him out? For my health? For the point spread? Of course he was out, that is why we are there to make calls.

Peace

I do not apologize for that statement. It got the point across and he knew I was not happy. That is after all what communication is supposed to do, convey what you are thinking.

Peace

I disagree. If you got a question about a call come out and question it when it happens. Don't wait until between innings. I'm not discussing anything that happened earlier in the game. I see no good coming from this. If it's a legitimate question of course I'll answer it but if it involves a play generally speaking what's the point in rehashing it?

Keep one more thing in mind. If you believe them when they say good job blue than you gotta believe them when they say you're terrible.:D

Amen to that. ;)

Peace

It's never stopped you.

Unprofessional? Absolutely.

The hell it can't.

What you were thinking was not an appropriate thought to share with him. Just because something is the truth doesn't mean it is proper to be said.

We are just going to have to disagree this one. Because his entire point was that he was professional as to justify what he did or why he was talking to me about a play well before the inning was over. I have yet to see where it says it is professional just because you do not yell and scream as a coach. Actually the rules say we can eject coaches for simply questioning a judgment call. This was a judgment call and discussed immediately when it took place. And my partner said in the pre-game meeting, “If you have a question, call time and we will answer your question.” He knew where we stood and choose to make a scene that there was a problem.

And I feel that as an umpire I have the right to share my feelings when a coach is in the wrong. I would have had more respect for him if he would have argued at the time. At least I would know he had a problem with the call. But to come to me much later, was dirty pool in my opinion. And I have often shared my opinions with coaches when they have crossed a line. That is my right and I have never seen anything that suggests I cannot do that. Sorry, but we have a right to comment on their BS, even if it hurts their feelings.

Peace

That is one of the stupidest things I have ever read.

I have come to the conclusion that coaches come out and ask questions that they already know the answer to just to get in your head.

I had a coach come out to me the other day. I was working the dish and had just finished ringing up his last batter of the inning. He came out and said, in a friendly tone, he didn't know what to tell his players. He claimed they had never seen a strike zone like mine and didn't know what to do. I wanted to laugh but I just said to him that I call it the same for both teams and they don't seem to be having a problem with it. His team was down by four runs.

I also had a coach come out to me in right field after I had called his player out at 1st on a banger for the 3rd out. He got up close and said to me "What did you see?" I said "I saw the ball get to the base before the runner did." He says "Do you want to know what I saw"? I said" Nope, not interested."

What did he think I was going to say? Like I said, they do it just to get in your head.

I agree. They can try, but it does not work with me.

Peace

I agree - I already have so many voices in my head there's not enough room for any more!! :D

"Well Coach, if it were me, I'd tell 'em to swing the bats. Your pitcher seems to be coping OK."

This season on a stolen base attempt that ended the inning...I got a "what happend over there?" and I replied..."other than the ball and tag beating him to the base...nothing" that ended it.

It is odd that the coach waited until the end of the inning to ask about the first out, but I guess if he was not animated and left in a timely manner, I would probably just tell him what I saw and let it slide... once.
If a guy isn't really mad, I'm surely not going to say anything that will make him that way.

The positive here is by asking you after the inning the game was not delayed at all. I think sometimes we give coaches way to much credit...some of them just aren't too smart about the rules...shocking I know.

Had a coach come out to me as I was in short right just three days ago and it was a first for me.

He wanted to give me grief for not having called what he thought was a balk about five batters prior to the last one of the inning. He had run his mouth about pretty good when it happened, but no one from his team bothered to ask for time and come out then to talk about it. Generally, I'll explain a call to any coach who is civil about it, but ignore random yelling across the field about a call.

It just so happens that this particular coach was coaching first base, so he was kind of in proximity to right field to begin with. He was also the assistant coach for this school, though he is a well-known head coach for other area travel teams, a well known pain in the rear and a bit of a legend in his own mind.

Our coversation went like this:

Coach: Are you gonna call that?

Me: Call what?

Coach: The balk.

Me: "The balk" for what exactly?

Coach: For not coming to a stop.

Me: Are you the head coach?

Coach: No.

Me: If the head coach has a question, he can ask for time and come see me.

Coach: Are you gonna call that!?

Me: If the head coach has a question, he can ask for time and come see me.

Coach: Grumble, grumble, grumble...(returns to dugout).

Okay, I was kind of a hard *** and that usually isn't my style. But I don't feel it's appropriate for an assistant coach to come out between innings and vent about a judgment call that happened five batters ago. Maybe if this guy's reputation as being a tool hadn't preceded him, I might have handled it differently.

Same game, a couple of innings later. Following a close play at first, the head coach does request time, approaches me, I walk to meet him hafway (kind of scratching my head as to why he is coming out on a routine- though close- judgnment call where I was set up right on the play and he was in the third base dugout, about 100 feet away).

I then get the dumbest question from him I've had all year- so far.

Coach: (With his best "I'm astounded and shocked by that call" look on his face) Did you call him safe?

Me: Did you see me hold both arms out to my side?

Coach: Yeah.

Me: Did you hear me loudly yell "safe!"?

Coach: Yeah.

Me: Then why are you out here asking me a question that you already know the answer to?

Coach: Grumble, grumble, grumble (returns to dugout).

I'm not really sure what this guy was getting at, other than maybe just trying to get under my skin. Certainly, he couldn't have any real expectation that I was going to tell him anything differently than that I had the runner safe, or entertain any notion that I would possibly reverse the call.

I guess that it was just Stupid Question Day at the ballpark and somebody forgot to tell me!

wonder what he would've said if you'd have answered "no" to his "did you call him safe?" question...it would have to be "well, why did you signal safe?" your answer...grin

Wouldn't that be inappropriate? ;)

Peace

very. but a bit funny

I was going to think of something unproductive to say, but others have beaten me to it. The fact that you really would do this speaks volumes about your level of professionalism, something umpires here have tried to point out time and time again.

BTW, wanting to ask about a play does not by itself make a coach a rat. I don't use that term for all coaches because most of them are well behaved.

Of course it was funny. And if he was going to ask such a stupid question, then he deserved the answer he got. JMHO.

Peace

That is way too much talking.


Coach: (With his best "I'm astounded and shocked by that call" look on his face) Did you call him safe?
Me: Yes

I think the moral of the story, is do what ever works for you. I hear people say not to say anything, do not piss off the coach, say a lot, do not care what the coach says, be direct, do not upset the coach.

If I have learned anything in my career, what works for me will not automatically work for someone else.

I have learned that my style works for some and does not work for many. I did not give all the comments in this situation and it really does not matter. The coach did exactly what I wanted him to do, go away and know that he could not come out there with some BS. He clearly got the message to the point he had to ask my partner what he thought. I will likely have that coach again and the next time he will know where I stand. And it is also likely he will not be at that school in a year. And what he thinks of me ultimately is not going to change what I have done. I have accomplished a lot despite what one coach that my not even win a playoff game thinks of me. I just do not live in that place where I need to please someone and say all the right things because they ask and behave in what I see as an unprofessional manner. As far as I am concerned if I am not raising my voice, using foul language/curse words, or threatening them with bodily harm, I am not violating any rules or standards. If you ask me a question and you it is a dumb question, I might not say it is a dumb question, but I might make you feel as if your comments are dumb. But this works for me and I am fine with it.

Peace

Yeah, I don't really disagree with that. In retrospect and with hindsight being 20/20, that is what I thought I probably shoiud have said...just say "yes"!

But in the heat of the moment and given that these two coaches had been a bit of a pain all day, right then I wanted to get a point across that I had enough of their "games" or whatever it was they thought they were trying to pull. Sometimes, every stupid question deserves a stupid answer...

My usual style is not to "one up" the coach, give a smart *** answer, get in the last word or spout some witty quip. I'm usually more of a "yes", "no", explain my ruling in five-words-or-less kind of guy.

"Yes" would work. If he asks, "Why?, something simple like, "The runner touched the bag first", should cover it.

To ask for time, walk across the field, then ask if I called the runner "safe" when he clearly saw and heard me do so is kind pointless and I hope that my answers to him made my point- I won't put up with pointless interuptions.

Yes they certainly did. You acknowledge that a few people already made unproductive comments. I'm glad you chose not to join in.

What was unprofessional about what I wrote? For all anyone knows I'm doing my job (checking the base, hustling to right field), and the coach is being the aggressor.

Well, arguing a judgment call is uncalled for in my humble opinion. Judgment calls cannot be argued. If he wants to ask about a rule, then fine, but coach don't come all the way out here to tell me I made a bad call.

You've already established that you are not doing your job and are baiting the coach. You've made your intentions clear to us, and with your comment to the hypothetical manager, you made your motivations clear to him. Even without that, it's still unprofessional. Just because you don't get caught doesn't mean that you're any less wrong.

Another incorrect statement. Baseball, like societies, has standards of acceptable conduct, and also like societies, those standards vary from group to group. Even with those verying standards, I have yet to see an area of competitive baseball in which all arguing of judgment calls is verboten, either formally or informally.

Repeating a falsehood does not make it true.

Asking him, "Did you have a nice run?" sounds like bating, which is something to be avoided.

Arguments happen, even arguments about judgement calls. Handling coaches is part of your job. By now I have had so many come out to me that I can predict when they're coming and how I am going to handle the situation. I don't even get irritated or frustrated with them very much anymore because I know this is just another part of the game I have to take care of. A difficult part, but one I have to do well because umpiring is as much about handling people as rules and mechanics.

Well put Seth. I tell people all the time, the training I have received over the years being an official, has helped me so much in real life with dealing with stress related and difficult situations on the job. Such as observing the situation completely before making rush to judgement decisions. Dealing with hot heads and numerous other situations.

In todays society it is very common for major corporations to send their managers to training on how to handle subordinates. And they pay BIG Bucks for it too. I think if they forced them to become officials in sporting events, they would get a whole lot more training, for a far cheaper cost.

I am positive that in time, and as CC6 matures, it will dawn on him one day, what we are trying to tell him. If not, he has a long difficult road ahead as an official.