Besr -3

[Nigel Tufnel]

Until you see it first hand, it really hits home. Had a pitcher this past week take a line drive to the jaw in a high school game. Went down like a sack of potatoes, and then flopped his back legs like a fish out of water, blood oozing out of his mouth(he has braces on his teeth...gas on the fire..)

Medics got there quick...plenty of people in shock(including me - I was first on the scene working the bases that day)

Went to the hospital after the game, and the poor kid had a broken jaw in two places, not to mention the cost of his parents to pay for new braces eventually (they had to remove them..)

This may be old news to people on this board (especially about news I have seen about kids dying as well with shots back up the box), but I wanted to get some feedback from around the states about the bats that fed allows and the possibilty of states ever going to wood bats.

This is a horrible time in our economy to even bring up this subject, because in Washington state we are seeing high schools on the brink of dropping programs to make budget cuts...


Having played ball through college, I know that wood may only slightly help out in situations like this, but I am wondering if there is any movement elsewhere to lessen situations like the one described above...

Technology is great in some areas of life, but not when the ball jumps off the bat the way it does these days....

[Kevin Finnerty]

Dropping programs due to budget cuts ...

It's great to see all those mega-millionaire big-leaguers stepping up to sponsor some of these programs and keep baseball alive for a new generation.

[zebra2955]

They have been arguing about that in Illinois for some time. The IHSA even had a study a couple years back, They had a couple conferences use wood in conference games only and compare stats, injuries etc. They concluded no advantage to metal. The city council in Chicago is bantering about outlawing metal. There is to much money involved by the manfacturers for this to ever happen. I would love to see metal go by the wayside just for the fact most kids do not swing the bat properly with metal, thay can just flail away and get a hit. I think this is the reason some studs in high school and college do not cut it in the pros they cannot adjust.

[MajorDave]

but at NCAA clinics it was discussed that in 2010 or 2011 the metal bat standards would change (Bat Exit Speed Ratio=BESR) and they would have to perform no better than wood in that area. I have not looked it up but it was briefly discussed in either Atlanta or Chicago. If NCAA does it then FED will probably have to follow.

Anyone else remember this discussion or commentary? Bob Jenkins, Jon Muller, John Kay?

[zebra2955]

I could be mistaken, but isn't that what the BESR standard is now? I thought that was what the test was now. The trampoline effect of metal was to be the same as wood. The problem is the bat is lighter and the sweet spot is much bigger on metal then wood.

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by zebra2955

I could be mistaken, but isn't that what the BESR standard is now? I thought that was what the test was now. The trampoline effect of metal was to be the same as wood. The problem is the bat is lighter and the sweet spot is much bigger on metal then wood.

Bats in HS and college aren't much lighter, if at all. Wood bats can be/are made with a drop 3 weight just lilke the metal ones. So a 32" wood bat and a 32" metal bat would weigh the same (29oz). Also, the shape/length of the barrel effect the sweet spot.

The "bad" hits off metal is where I think the problem in adjusting happens. Off of metal you can get a bloop single out of what a slow roller (or easy infield pop up) would be off of wood. With wood you HAVE to hit the sweet spot to get a solid hit - you don't with metal.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel

Technology is great in some areas of life, but not when the ball jumps off the bat the way it does these days....

What the heck are you talking about? This is America. If you think that safety, health and welfare of the participants in this sport is more important then profit margins, then you better get ED U A CATED.

This discussion has taken place many times here and studies have proven that although the ball exit speed from the bat may be similiar, the chances are much higher that the a ball will be hit in play with a metal bat vs a wood bat. The sweet spot is more distrbuted in a metal bat than a wood bat. Which means there are more balls to be fielded and more chances for injuries. And I am not saying that the metal bat is the real cause for those injuries but, I like others here enjoyed the days when the art of good hitting was based upon good hand-eye coordination rather than the ability to stick metal in the path of the ball. Some may say that this the same thing. Well I don't think you fully understand the art of a good hitter then.

I don't know what the real answer is either but, I still maintain my right to blab on. IMO. The discussion will go on though.

[DG]

With the cost these days of good aluminum bats, the issue of economics is no longer valid. You can break a bunch of wood bats for the price of one aluminum.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Originally Posted by jicecone

What the heck are you talking about? This is America. If you think that safety, health and welfare of the participants in this sport is more important then profit margins, then you better get ED U A CATED.

This discussion has taken place many times here and studies have proven that although the ball exit speed from the bat may be similiar, the chances are much higher that the a ball will be hit in play with a metal bat vs a wood bat. The sweet spot is more distrbuted in a metal bat than a wood bat. Which means there are more balls to be fielded and more chances for injuries. And I am not saying that the metal bat is the real cause for those injuries but, I like others here enjoyed the days when the art of good hitting was based upon good hand-eye coordination rather than the ability to stick metal in the path of the ball. Some may say that this the same thing. Well I don't think you fully understand the art of a good hitter then.

I don't know what the real answer is either but, I still maintain my right to blab on. IMO. The discussion will go on though.

thanks for pointing out the obvious over and over....the point is that the the good hitters are getting more velocity off the bat with new technology...
I don't think you fully understand the post...by the way, steroids has nothing to do with good hand-eye coordination if you know what I mean..just ask Barry Bonds

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel

thanks for pointing out the obvious over and over....the point is that the the good hitters are getting more velocity off the bat with new technology...
I don't think you fully understand the post...by the way, steroids has nothing to do with good hand-eye coordination if you know what I mean..just ask Barry Bonds

Oh I understand the post and have heard of movements in the NYC area , state of Ct. and Western PA. In each I don't believe that they have been successful in returning to wood bats. And believe me, I am all for it too. I believe in Ct., summer Am Legion ball has had many teams using the wood. Don't know where that has gone since I moved though.

As far as Barry boy, well even the lawyers and Federal prosecutors have asked him several time about steroids and, well, I just don't think he ever got aroud to telling the truth. His problem though. What goes around , comes around.

[umpjong]

Bat-testing regulations modified
October 08, 2008
The NCAA News
Helpful Links
Email this article
Print this article
Link to this page
Copy/Paste Link:

The NCAA Baseball Research Panel, a group charged with maintaining the protocol for testing baseball bats in the college game, has recommended changes to the means for measuring performance in those tests.

The panel recommended replacing the “ball exit-speed ratio” with a “ball-bat coefficient of restitution” or BBCOR, because the latter eliminates discrepancies with different length bats and is a more direct measure of bat performance. At its meeting in July, the NCAA Baseball Rules Committee, which oversees and determines the actual performance level of bats, approved the new protocol and established the performance standard based on data collected from available wooden bats.

The committee and the research panel found that for a given bat length, batted-ball speed is a near-perfect correlation with BBCOR – that is, a bat’s BBCOR will predict the speed with which the ball will leave the bat. Because wood and non-wood bats with the same BBCOR produce essentially the same batted-ball speeds, it is relatively easy to relate a non-wood bat’s performance to that of a similarly sized wood bat.

The panel believes most bat designers are more familiar with the BBCOR than with the previous standard, which should help them create bats that meet NCAA performance standards.

The rules committee made the change in part because of NCAA Division I baseball statistics that indicate increased offensive performance, particularly in home runs and runs scored. The committee believes the rise is due, in part, to the kind of bats in use today.

“But the modification in the measure of performance doesn’t mean that the testing process itself has changed,” said the NCAA’s Ty Halpin, associate director of playing rules administration and staff liaison to the NCAA Baseball Rules Committee.

The rules committee has determined, based on a large sample of wood bats tested in the same manner, that an appropriate maximum standard for BBCOR is 0.50. Halpin said that satisfies the NCAA’s intention to maintain its non-wood standard using available scientific data and – as nearly as possible – achieving wood-like performance in non-wood bats.

“The 0.50 standard sets the performance line slightly higher than the best available wood bats in our database,” he said. “This will ensure that all wood bats continue to be legal under the new standard.”

The NCAA will maintain other standards, such as the current length-to-weight difference, the “moment-of-inertia” (MOI) standard and bat-diameter limit. No “sliding scale” will be associated with the new BBCOR standard; thus, all bats must meet the 0.50 limit regardless of length. The new standard is likely to require an adjustment in the design of all bats currently legal under the BESR.

To allow manufacturers sufficient time to adjust, the NCAA will enforce this standard beginning January 1, 2011, and will allow only BBCOR-certified bats in the 2011 season and beyond. There will be no opportunity for “grandfathering” old bats.

Halpin said the change does mean that existing bats will need to be tested again, and that by 2011, bats will be required to be designated with a BBCOR certification mark to be considered legal.

[MajorDave]

but I could not remember where I read about the new bat standards. At least I remembered it was NCAA.

I'm glad I don't buy bats anymore. The price of those things is astronomical now. I would hate to see what they will be in 2011.

Most players say they need a new bat every year as they lose their "pop" after a while.

I hope they get it right this time but I doubt it.

[umpjong]

I am buying stock in bat companies as we speak.....

[Kevin Finnerty]

There is a devastating infestation of a beetle that has already destroyed tens of millions of ash trees in the U.S. and Canada. Its effects have already resulted in a shortage of wood for making bats. This will, of course, make them more costly as well.

Maple is not the answer, obviously. Bamboo composite performs magnificently, and is amazingly durable, and of course is quite plentiful. That could be the answer for amateur and collegiate baseball.

[SAump]

"The composite bats are much more durable. They are designed to hit exactly like the traditional wood bats, but they have a hickory handle and hickory is an extremely durable wood. It's really difficult to break. It is being received very well, better than we anticipated, and we haven't even done any marketing for it. We're getting phone calls about it already and we don't even have it up on our Web site yet."

For more information about the Phoenix Bat Co., visit Phoenix Bat Company offers pro series baseball bats custom maple bats custom wood bats ash baseball bats composite bats pheonix bats phoenix bats wood baseball bats wood bats wooden bats.