Unusual play - Ruling/Interpretation Question
 

I had a play occur the other day in a Varsity HS game that I was coaching that was unusual, at least based on my experience. The umpires struggled with the call and I, quite frankly, wasn't sure either what the call should be.

We have a runner on second, two outs, 3-2 count on the hitter. Hitter rips a high line drive down the first baseline. The first baseman, who was playing behind the bag, jumps in an attempt to catch the ball. He catches a piece of the ball directing it up further into the air and toward out of play. He scrambles for the ball and dives in another attempt to catch the ball. Once again it hits off the end of his glove and the ball lands out of play. Ball never came in contact with the ground until it was out of play.

What's the ruling on this play? Thanks in advance for your feedback.

Fair or Foul?
 

Where was F-3 when he FIRST touched the ball?

If in Fair ... Fair ball, ground rule double.

If in Foul Territory ... Foul Ball

Was the ball fair or foul when he first touched it?

The ball is foul or fair depending upon the position of the ball when it first touches the fielder's glove. The position of the fielder is not relevant. If the ball was over fair territory when it tipped off the glove it is a fair ball. If the ball was over foul territory it is a foul ball. If fair two base award from time of pitch for ball going out of play.

Two others beat me to the punch.

Sorry guys made an assumption there. Both the player and the ball were in fair play when the ball was initially touched

Then as stated above, this is a fair batted ball that has gone out of play and all runners are awarded two bases from time of pitch.

BTW. What did the umpires finally rule?

Hitter was placed on second. Runner on second was placed at home (scored).

so they got it right?

Yes they did in the end but they initially were going to place runners at 1st and 3rd. My discussion with them centered mainly around the runner at second that should be placed at home since we were running on the pitchers first movement (3-2, 2outs) and the runner reached third prior to the play being over/ball knocked out of play. In the end they talked about it and made the correct call. I will have to let them know next game they did a good job on that play.

you do understand that your reason is not why your runner was allowed to score though right?

Yes I do. But in a moment when I'm not sure myself what the ruling should be, I've got to challange you guys with some "Reasonable" argument that might initiate a second thought in your mind or a second discussion. This second discussion is what unltimately brought about the correct call, in this case. Doesn't always work that way though.

Disagree.

{this post deleted by me as being obviated by further discussion--I should have refreshed before posting}

Disagree with whom? And with what?

Ok, then tell us you think it is time of deflection.

I think he is saying that it should be 2 bases from the time F# deflected the ball out of play the 2nd time he contacted the ball. Because it was his action that caused the ball to go out of play. If so he would be right, but that is a ****ty end of the stick.

okay, that makes sense...

Exactly. Why is it that the [dirty] end of the stick? Would you call it differently?

I would award 3rd if I were 110% that the B/R was past 1st when the ball was deflected. No Doubt at all.

In that case, I'm with you 100%. Make that 110%.

Rules basis for that?

PBUC blue book and MLB manual. It has to do with the impetus of the ball. If it was going to go out on its own then it is ToP or ToT, but if the ball goes out of play because the fielder changed the impetus of the ball then it is 2 from the ToD, or the spot that the base runners were at when the fielders action took place.

Examples, ball hit to the wall, fielder reaches down and then comes up and says it went under the fence, would be 2 bases from the time he went down, throw from a fielder to the plate, ball rolls over too the dugout and is coming to a stop, but the catcher slides and his action causes the ball to go into the dugout, it would be 2 from the time of the deflection.

J/R calls it a "subsequent push." If the fielder supplied the impetus that caused the ball to enter DBT, it's 2 from the time of the push (deflection).

A batted ball going under the fence is 2 bases TOP - or do you mean the fielder pushed it under the fence?

The OP has a ball in flight being deflected into DBT. What's all this subsequent push/added impetus BS.

The Canseco added impetus was a HR. If it went out in foul teritory it would be 2 bases TOP.

I agree with Rich and disagree with Dash and Durham..According to the PBUC (I don't have a MLBUM):

If a fair fly ball is deflected in flight by a fielder and then goes out of play outside of the foul lines the award is two bases from the time of the pitch.

It goes on to say that even if the ball is not in flight it would still be time of pitch.

According to the PBUC the only instance it is time of deflection is when the act is intentional or when the fielder had complete control of the ball and then drops it and deflects it out of play. In all other instances it is time of pitch or in the case of a thrown ball, time of throw. (Except the first play by an infielder...)

I think the deflection was a secondary action after the initial one (maybe what you're consider the Canseco one...then another deflection that went out of play...seemingly foul territory

That is not a subsequent push. The momentum of the ball took it over the wall (even though it was deflected by the fielder). The fielder did not add the impetus (energy), he just deflected the ball.

There was no subsequent push/added impetus to the Canseco HR. Had he caught the ball and thrown it over the fence, it would be 2 from the TOT.

And if you think the subsequent push/added impetus stuff is BS, sooner or later you're going to get it wrong on the field.

Dash, that is correct for the Conseco play because he would have had control of it and deliberately thrown it into dead ball. Then the award is TOD.

Unless I am reading it wrong, the OP is a deflected ball. Granted it is deflected twice, but the ball remained in flight and the fielder was attempting to catch it not deliberately deflect it. Therefore the rule is clear that the award is time of pitch.

PBUC clearly states that time of deflection only applies if the subsequent push is intentional or happens after the fielder had complete control of the ball.

The second example given by Durham is a good one. The ball did not have enough energy to make it into the dugout. The sliding catcher added the energy necessary for the ball to reach DBT. That is why the award is 2 from the time of deflection. The catcher neither intended to deflect it, nor had any control of the ball when he deflected it.

The OP follows the same principle. The umpire must make a judgment. Did the fielder supply the energy necessary for the ball to reach DBT? If so, then it's a TOD award. If he merely redirected the kinetic energy of the ball by deflecting it, then it's a TOP award.

Whether or not the ball is in flight is irrelevant to this determination.

I still disagree and the BRD and PBUC back me up.

First of all this is a batted ball. The references I was able to find to determining if the added push by the fielder caused the ball to go out were all in reference to a pitch or a throw from the mound. (I am only using my BRD and PBUC right now.)

The BRD clearly states: If a batted or thrown ball is unintentionally deflected into dead ball territory the award is the same at all levels: two bases measured from TOP (batted ball) or TOT (thrown ball)

In a separate section Carl references the FED's ruling that the fielder's intent is not relevant, what counts is the impetus that caused the ball to go dead. This, however, is specifically referring to a pitch intentionally deflected. What FED does is reduce the award if the ball was going to go dead anyway. This still requires the act to be intentional.

In the OP the fielder was trying to catch a batted ball and unintentionally deflected it into DBT. This is a TOP award according to every reference I am looking at. If you can quote a reference that says otherwise, please let me know so I can check it out.

I found references to the subsequent push/new impetus in J/R and the NCAA rulebook and they are limited, in both references, to a pitch or in-contact throw. Unless Durham or someone else with a MLBUM can demonstrate otherwise, I concede the point to you and Rich. Good discussion. That's one of the reasons I'm here.

Men,

I am having a hard time with this interp. I had a play early this year when we had R1, outs don't matter. There was a clean BH to left field, the ball is down on the grass. LF tries to cut tries ball off and it goes off his glove and goes into DBT. It was not a very well laid out field (no fence for the playing field in that area, and a short piece of foul ground) for that to happen but it did.

It is not far from this play to imagine an intentional kick and carry to save a base or more by the defense. In the play I had in this situation, I need to understand why the offense is penalized by the mistake the defense made, at least in my case. Once the ball is down and rolling on the ground and not in danger of going out of play until the direction is changed by the fielder, you have a different set of variables to play with. The fly ball ball hits off glove or F9's head and goes out, or the rocket shot gets mishandled by F5, and goes out is one thing. I can live with that.

However, IMO there is a difference in my play where the "big dogs" are missing a signigficant piece of the puzzle.

Sorry for the rant here.

JK: I don't see the rule penalizing the offense. After all, a ball that hits in fair territory and bounces over the fence is a 2 base award -- that runner on 1B feels gypped, but nobody complains about it. Given the current scenario, I would have told a complaining coach (a) that's the rule, and (b) it's like a "ground rule double," which is to say, "hey, that's baseball."

I found Armadillo's reference: in my 2008 BRD, it's note 27, in §28, on p. 32. We should note the difference between unintentionally deflecting a batted ball into DBT (2 bases from TOP) and intentionally doing so (2 bases from TOT). Thus, intent carries a potentially greater penalty.

8.3.3J seems very similar to your play (except it happens in RF not in LF). Note the difference between "impetus" provided by the fielder and "force" provided by the batted ball.

Basically, treat the fielder as a rock. IF the ball hits off a rock and goes out of play, it's two bases, TOP. If the ball wouldn't have gone out of play, then it's two bases TOT (or TODeflection).

An intentional kick is always two bases TOK.

8.3.3K provides additional guidance.

Bob,

I see what the casebook says. I did not recall this case play. Thank you for pointing it out. Do you believe this is applicable to a ball in flight as well as a bounding ball as in the case play.

Is there anything in the OBR texts that suggest this? My reading of PBUC section 3.8 is that this would be a TOP award unless deemed intentional. In the FED play it bounces off the leg unintentionally which leads me to believe that OBR does not recognize the impetus concept FED uses.

So do you believe that in the OP we should award the BR third if he reached first prior to the second deflection? Or is this still considered a fair ball in flight deflected into foul DBT and thus a TOP award as I have suggested?

Thus far, it looks like I have it right in FED, and Armadillo has it right in OBR & NCAA.

Its a floor wax! It's a dessert topping! Stop - you're both right!

For the OP, it's the SECONDARY attempt by F3 that leads me to believe that this is 2 bases from the time of the deflection. The ball would not have gone out of play had he not forced it out on the dive. Had the ball went out of play on his initial deflection, then yes, I would agree that it's 2 from the TOP.

Desert Topping Tastes Better
 

I'm still not sold on the TOT in this instance. To me the ball still meets the definition of in flight no matter how many times it is touched until it hits the ground or an object.

I'm willing to defer to the experts, however, if someone has a case play or interp discussing a ball in flight.

I do agree that on any thrown or pitched ball it would, in FED, be time of deflection.

Bob,
 

Thank you for the analogy, that is more or less how I saw the play.

Still, this was an NCAA game with my play, and even if I am going against the rule/case/interpretation books, I am comfortable my partner and I came up with the right call for our situation.

Not every play can be legislated, that's why we who wear, heather, charcoal, Black, Navy, Lt. Blue in 32 different flavors, Creme, Gray, White, Red :eek:, and who knows what else have something called judgment.

(Did I miss any colors?)

No doubt about that.

I had games all day yesterday just checking the thread this am....seems like a good discussion. I am still a bit unclear, in my particular situation, if its ruled TOP or TOT or TOT #2. Anyone care to give me a summary?

Summary: It's either TOP or TOT, depending on the energy of the ball or the energy added by the fielder and how you choose to read the rules.

I hope that helps. ;)

Thanks Bob and to all those whom replied