What is the outcome of this?
 

Bases loaded, one out. Batter lifts a fly ball to center which goes over the head of the centerfielder. The CFer retrieves the ball and throws to third. The runner from third scores, the runner from second scores, but the runner from first gets thrown out at third. The defense then properly appeals that the runner from first missed second. The appeal is granted.

How many runs score?

ABCZ,

Two. And the R1 is STILL out.

JM

2 runs score. Both the runner that was on 2nd and the one that was on 3rd. Your OP said there was only one out. The appeal would not be necessary as they already retired the runner at third base. If there were two outs in this sitch, still two runs would score as the appeal now becomes a time play.

Well,
 

Because R1 cannot make two outs on the same play (you have him thrown out at third and missing second base) there are only now two outs.

Both runners that scored count.

Husker,

No, that statement is not correct.

If there were 2 outs at the start of the play, then the appeal of the R1's failure to touch 2B would be a run-nullifying "advantageous apparent 4th out appeal", and no runs would score. Since the R1 was "forced" to 2B at the time of the miss, a proper appeal of his miss is treated as a force out. Since it would be the 3rd out of the half-inning, no runs would score on the play.

JM

Just to clarify.... You can only "swap" outs by the same runner, not add them together, correct?

Yes.

This is the exact question posted on another board by a different person.

:rolleyes:

So then based on UmpJM scenario if there was 1 out, as OP states, then only 1 run would count and R2 is placed on 3B, BR is on 1B. Due to R1 being "forced out" by appeal. :confused:

Why would R2 be placed back at third (and BR back at first, if he had advanced farther)?

R1 is out on the appeal, but the other runners keep the bases to which they had advanced.

Bob - I am confused now as to what the proper call would be with the one out scenario. Is this a timing situation? Back to the OP, If appeal made, R1 is out for the second out for missing 2B. R3 scores and R2 scores. BR if advanced to second on the throw to third would maintain 2B. Correct?

But if 2 outs, it becomes a "force" situation and no runs score? Appreciate clarification. Thanks! :confused:

R1 has already "touched" 2B, so my understanding would be that it's not a force out.

Defense appealed, after R1 thrown out at 3B, that R1 MISSED 2B and therefore was ruled out by appeal.

but it's an appeal play, not a force play right?

JPaco,

I'm not Bob, but let me try to answer your question..

If there is only one out at the start of the play, there is no "timing" to concern yourself with because at the end of the play there are only two outs - even if the defense were to appeal the R1's miss of 2B.

Since they already put him out when he tried to advance to 3B, he's really, really out, but it's still just one out.

johnny,

You seem to suggest these are mutually exclusive options - they are not. See post #5 above.

JM

It's both. But you'd only need the force play if it were the third out.

Just like the LAD/D-Backs game right...if Pierre doesn't get in the rundown, they don't have the 4th out option right?

It might be both (depending on what specific play you are discussing).

An out can be made either "during regular action" or "on appeal".

An out can be a force out or a non-force out.

You can get either / any by touching the bag or tagging the runner.

Not precisely true. If the appeal, whether tagging the runner or tagging the base, occurs before the run crosses the plate, then there would be no need for the fourth out option. I saw some fan comments that suggested it was the body tag rather than the "force-out" base tag that made the difference, which is wrong, of course.
Pierre did not get into a rundown. Both F4 Lopez and R2 Pierre were walking toward each other while R3 Ethier was sprinting across the plate. That's what made that play possible. DMF4.

Correct. These are the helpful posts from JM I like to see.

Let's change the OP and say the BR was tagged out instead of R1, then the D appeals R1's miss of 2nd base.

Now we have 3 outs with no runs scoring, correct?

bossman,

That's correct.

As long as the out on the play and the subsequent appeal out are on two different runners, both outs stand.

Since, in the OP the R1 was forced to 2B at the time of the miss, his out is a run-nullifying 3rd out of the half-inning.

JM

Does the BR being tagged remove the force on R1? Does it matter whether the BR tagged out before or after he reaches first? Does it matter whether R1 was forced at the time of the pitch or the time he missed second? ;)

Sorry y'all
 

I am totally confused now in regards to the OP. We have changed the scenario several times during this post and I am still not sure what the correct answer is to the OP. Do the two runs count when there is only one out? Thanks!:confused:

Yes -- 2 runs score, R1 is out at third, BR is safe at whatever base he ends up at. The appeal has no effect (since it's not an "advantageous 4th out")