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-   -   Asking for Help (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/52836-asking-help.html)

mbyron Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ump153 (Post 595926)
Not according to the online FED clinic I saw. It specifically stated that the runner must have access to a portion of the side of the base facing him. A fielder who entirely blocks the leading edge and insists that runner merely had to reach around him to find another portion of the bag is not provding "access."
I agree, and that's what I've been taught as well. I was rejecting the idea that "access" means "where the runner wants to go."

mbyron Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 595923)
It could have been a "back door" pick-off play, or similar.
Sure, it's possible to pick off R1 when you've got R1 & R2. I'm suggesting that such a play is risky; the back-door pick-off is especially so. That's why we don't see it much.

And since we don't see it, our mechanics don't need to factor it in much.

And that's why we're in C with R1 & R2. (I vaguely remember that this mechanic has something to do with how we got into all of this about picking off R1 and not R2.)

Spence Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 595919)
Do you understand that holding R1 on 1B is costly for the defense?
No. I do realize, though, that it CAN be a problem.

Spence Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham (Post 595927)
I'll offer this answer and honestly I am surprised that noone has yet. As a PU I see less than 1% of plays at first on a pick-off, and when I do see them I see them very late. The reason is as a PU I am watching the pitcher for balk and if I turn to see the pick-off I will miss a balk. Umpire school and many clinics teach the PU to not turn to see the play, but watch the pitcher for balk, and if asked I would probably tell a coach, "I would ask my partner for help if I could, but I know he wasn't watching the play he was looking for a balk." After all, they are the ones that are always trying to teach us mechanic; you know, like where we should be and who should make what call.
Good info.

However, how long are you watching? Wouldn't the balk occur before the throw?

MrUmpire Tue Apr 14, 2009 01:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence (Post 595904)
So now that it seems unanimous that the umpire is not going to ask for help in this situation let me ask this.

Is there ever a time where you would ask your partner for help other than on a checked swing?
As the seemingly innocuous OP subtly transitions...

{troll alert}

Durham Tue Apr 14, 2009 01:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence (Post 595955)
Good info.

However, how long are you watching? Wouldn't the balk occur before the throw?
Most balks would occur before the throw, but some occur as the throw is taking place. The step balk comes to mind.

bob jenkins Tue Apr 14, 2009 02:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence (Post 595955)
Good info.

However, how long are you watching? Wouldn't the balk occur before the throw?
Probably -- but it might bappen so close to the throw that the umpire wouldn't have time to move his head and get set before the play at first.

There are times to get help, and times whn you can't. This is a time you can't.

Download (or read on-line) the NCAA rules book. There's a good discussion in there about "getting help."

ozzy6900 Tue Apr 14, 2009 06:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDUB (Post 595908)
Why are you thinking so much? It is a pickoff; do you footwork and make the call.
Listen, LUBDUB :D, if you read the OP there is a coach mouthing off and that needs to be addressed.

To the posters who don't see a problem with throwing behind the lead runner.... oh why waste my breath! It's obvious you never got too far playing ball.

LDUB Tue Apr 14, 2009 09:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzy6900 (Post 595999)
Listen, LUBDUB :D, if you read the OP there is a coach mouthing off and that needs to be addressed.
Ok so you say

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzy6900 (Post 595882)
"If your team is dumb enough to throw behind the lead runner, you loose
What is dumb about that? They picked off the runner. I think any manager would rather have R2 with 1 out over R2 & R1 with 0 out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzy6900 (Post 595882)
Now my partner is going to have to keep his eye on the lead runner which means he will not be watching the pickoff with me so I am not even going to bother going to him, coach!"
I would have said that the PU's would be responsible for F1's step and after that be responsible for the ball on a pickoff at first base. What set of mechanics are you using where the PU on pickoffs watches R2?

DG Tue Apr 14, 2009 09:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence (Post 595837)
I assume "C" is on the 3rd base side of the mound. That's where he was so I assume then that there was a R2 as well.
R1 only mentioned.

DG Tue Apr 14, 2009 09:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ODJ (Post 595843)
What if F3 is blocking the part of the base R1 wanted to touch for his return to the base?
Obstruction.

DG Tue Apr 14, 2009 09:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 595864)
The rule imposes a burden on the defense, but it's not intended to be an unreasonable burden. How should the fielder know what the runner "wants?"
The fielder knows that if the runner is off the bag to the back side he can't just block the back side of the bag while giving him the front. The rule is intended to prevent fielders from providing reasonable access.

Matt Tue Apr 14, 2009 09:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyg08 (Post 595935)
I'm curious as to where you got your information. The interpretation says some access..it doesn't specify what part of the base, just access. I would ask your FED instructor to reexplain that...I can't imagine that FED would specify which part of the base they'd have to allow access...obviously they can't say that we're allowing access to the back side of the base or the top or bottom of the base...but I think you know what I'm getting at.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 595864)
The "access" that the fielder must grant need NOT be what the runner "wants." Any "access" will do.

The rule imposes a burden on the defense, but it's not intended to be an unreasonable burden. How should the fielder know what the runner "wants?"
I agree with the above two. Of course, Johnny and I have the same interpreting authority, so take that as you will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DG (Post 596025)
The fielder knows that if the runner is off the bag to the back side he can't just block the back side of the bag while giving him the front. The rule is intended to prevent fielders from providing reasonable access.
I think you missed a word in your last sentence. Anyway, your interpretation is unenforceable. All a runner would have to do is slide into the fielder on every play and that would be obstruction--after all, if he slid there, that must be the part of the bag he wanted to access, right?

DG Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt (Post 596028)
Anyway, your interpretation is unenforceable. All a runner would have to do is slide into the fielder on every play and that would be obstruction--after all, if he slid there, that must be the part of the bag he wanted to access, right?
Hogwash. If F3 does not give reasonable access he is guilty of obstruction and I can enforce. If he does not want to get called for it then he needs to give accesss.

Matt Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DG (Post 596031)
Hogwash. If F3 does not give reasonable access he is guilty of obstruction and I can enforce. If he does not want to get called for it then he needs to give accesss.
Which one is it? Reasonable access, or just access?


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