Asking for Help
 

2 man crew in a game I watched tonight.

R1

RHP picks off R1 but the base umpire calls him safe because he can't see that the runner's hand is not on the base. F3 dropped straight down with the knee and prevented the runner from touching the base.

I could see it because I was looking straight down the first base line so I assume the HP umpire could as well.

I completely understand how the field up didn't see it.

However, what would prevent that umpire from asking the home plate ump if the runner touched the base?

if he thought he say everything he needed to see he would not ask for help. sometimes we see things like this that our partners do not see...this is an example where we wouldn't intervene in the play. That's baseball.

Likely obstruction if you were working a FED game. He can't drop a knee without possession of the ball. But if he don't call that either... so be it.

if he allows some access to the base he can drop his knee can't he?

I don't have a problem asking for help however, on this play the Base ump is closer than the Plate ump. To try and be that finite by asking someone further away than you for help, well the perception just makes you both look bad. I know I wouldn't be asking for help on this.

Yea I know, the purists say the most important thing is to always get it right. I say as right as possible.

great point...esp on a play of this nature...

I just reading literally here.. "dropped straight down with the knee and prevented the runner". If he dropped a knee and gave him some of the bag then no obsruction. You are the judge as to how much is some. I generally go with half that the runner can use.

Let me clear up some items.

The field ump was on the 3rd base side of the mound so he wasn't much closer than the HP ump. In addition F3 was between him and R1 when he made the tag.

F3 didn't drop his knee until after catching the ball.

I realize the FU saw what he saw. However, if the coach disagrees and approaches it the right way would it be unusual for the field ump to ask the HP ump for help?

With F1 only BU should be in B, not C. And yes, it would be very highly unusual for BU to ask for help from PU. Like never...

Your "view" down the first base line would probably not give a very good view of the back of 1st base, which was probably the part given to the runner.

As a high school ref I can certainly appreciate your support of the umpires.

There was no question his hand did not reach the base. Add in that it was "my team" that should have been called out and you see I have no agenda.

I assume "C" is on the 3rd base side of the mound. That's where he was so I assume then that there was a R2 as well.

I don't get it. I thought you were there.

What if F3 is blocking the part of the base R1 wanted to touch for his return to the base?

From this year's clinic:

"The fielder must give the runner access to a portion of the edge of the base facing the runner."

Forcing the runner to reach around and touch the edge of the base farthest from the runner is not providing access.

Yes, you were there...don't you know for a fact there was R2? And with R2, why were they holding the runner at first? Was this some sort of sneak behind the runner play? Strange to have a pickoff at first with R2. Are you sure it wasn't 1st and 3rd?

The "access" that the fielder must grant need NOT be what the runner "wants." Any "access" will do.

The rule imposes a burden on the defense, but it's not intended to be an unreasonable burden. How should the fielder know what the runner "wants?"

Yes, it would be unusual to get help on this play.

Wait a minute! If we have R1 & R2, I am in "C". If your pitcher does a pickoff to 1st, you are going to get what I can give you from the "C" position - I am not going for help!

Why? "If your team is dumb enough to throw behind the lead runner, you loose! Now my partner is going to have to keep his eye on the lead runner which means he will not be watching the pickoff with me so I am not even going to bother going to him, coach!"

Thanks, although I don't understand why you would consider it dumb to throw to first to try to pick off a runner.

So now that it seems unanimous that the umpire is not going to ask for help in this situation let me ask this.

Is there ever a time where you would ask your partner for help other than on a checked swing?

Why are you thinking so much? It is a pickoff; do you footwork and make the call.

You need to get the PBUC red book. There are many, many instances where you can get help, too many to list in an internet post.

For example, no runners, ground ball to the infield, routine play at 1B: PU comes up the line to watch for a swipe tag, interference, and an overthrow. BU can go for help on all 3. (Pulled foot is not proper, but some will go for help on this too.)

R1 and R2? Why are they trying to pick off R1? Where's he gonna go?

Why not pick him off and get an out?

Do you understand that holding R1 on 1B is costly for the defense?

It could have been a "back door" pick-off play, or similar.

Not according to the online FED clinic I saw. It specifically stated that the runner must have access to a portion of the side of the base facing him. A fielder who entirely blocks the leading edge and insists that runner merely had to reach around him to find another portion of the bag is not provding "access."

I'll offer this answer and honestly I am surprised that noone has yet. As a PU I see less than 1% of plays at first on a pick-off, and when I do see them I see them very late. The reason is as a PU I am watching the pitcher for balk and if I turn to see the pick-off I will miss a balk. Umpire school and many clinics teach the PU to not turn to see the play, but watch the pitcher for balk, and if asked I would probably tell a coach, "I would ask my partner for help if I could, but I know he wasn't watching the play he was looking for a balk." After all, they are the ones that are always trying to teach us mechanic; you know, like where we should be and who should make what call.

I'm curious as to where you got your information. The interpretation says some access..it doesn't specify what part of the base, just access. I would ask your FED instructor to reexplain that...I can't imagine that FED would specify which part of the base they'd have to allow access...obviously they can't say that we're allowing access to the back side of the base or the top or bottom of the base...but I think you know what I'm getting at.

I agree, and that's what I've been taught as well. I was rejecting the idea that "access" means "where the runner wants to go."

Sure, it's possible to pick off R1 when you've got R1 & R2. I'm suggesting that such a play is risky; the back-door pick-off is especially so. That's why we don't see it much.

And since we don't see it, our mechanics don't need to factor it in much.

And that's why we're in C with R1 & R2. (I vaguely remember that this mechanic has something to do with how we got into all of this about picking off R1 and not R2.)

No. I do realize, though, that it CAN be a problem.

Good info.

However, how long are you watching? Wouldn't the balk occur before the throw?

As the seemingly innocuous OP subtly transitions...

{troll alert}

Most balks would occur before the throw, but some occur as the throw is taking place. The step balk comes to mind.

Probably -- but it might bappen so close to the throw that the umpire wouldn't have time to move his head and get set before the play at first.

There are times to get help, and times whn you can't. This is a time you can't.

Download (or read on-line) the NCAA rules book. There's a good discussion in there about "getting help."

Listen, LUBDUB :D, if you read the OP there is a coach mouthing off and that needs to be addressed.

To the posters who don't see a problem with throwing behind the lead runner.... oh why waste my breath! It's obvious you never got too far playing ball.

Ok so you say

What is dumb about that? They picked off the runner. I think any manager would rather have R2 with 1 out over R2 & R1 with 0 out.

I would have said that the PU's would be responsible for F1's step and after that be responsible for the ball on a pickoff at first base. What set of mechanics are you using where the PU on pickoffs watches R2?

R1 only mentioned.

Obstruction.

The fielder knows that if the runner is off the bag to the back side he can't just block the back side of the bag while giving him the front. The rule is intended to prevent fielders from providing reasonable access.

I agree with the above two. Of course, Johnny and I have the same interpreting authority, so take that as you will.

I think you missed a word in your last sentence. Anyway, your interpretation is unenforceable. All a runner would have to do is slide into the fielder on every play and that would be obstruction--after all, if he slid there, that must be the part of the bag he wanted to access, right?

Hogwash. If F3 does not give reasonable access he is guilty of obstruction and I can enforce. If he does not want to get called for it then he needs to give accesss.

Which one is it? Reasonable access, or just access?

You can't be serious. Obstinate comes to mind.

I am quite serious, since you have yet to say anything uncouched in vague terms. You have yet to address the enforceability issue that I raised. Do I need to be blunt? Here goes:

Define "reasonable access."

Define "part of the base the runner can use."

You very well be meaning the same interpretation that I have been taught, but you haven't said squat as to the specifics of it. As I envision what you are saying, your interpretation is easily abused by runners, because it relies on QED logic.

Do you understand now?

Someone else stated it, but I will add, as PU, I'm not watching the pickoff at first. That's none of my business.

Game tonight and coach wants me to appeal a pulled foot by F3. "No coach we are not asking for help". I was in great position and could see the foot on the bag anyway, but coaches today want us to ask for help on everything. BTW, there was R2 and R3 on the play and PU is watching them anyway not a play at first.


It's getting pretty silly almost now to watch.

Thanks
David

[quote=LDUB;596019
I would have said that the PU's would be responsible for F1's step and after that be responsible for the ball on a pickoff at first base. What set of mechanics are you using where the PU on pickoffs watches R2?[/quote]
If we were in this position as players, I as R2 would be off on F1's move to 1st. Being in a secondary and my speed, I would now be on 3rd (I was faster in my youth). This was a standard move on a "throw behind".

Now I understand as an umpire you holding to CCA mechanics but now we have a situation where the CCA does not cover the problem. You know that F3 is going to try to nail me going to 3rd and anything under NCAA is probably going to end up as an overthrow. So while the BU is covering the pickoff at 1st, who is going to handle the action at 3rd? Your BU is not going to be able to cover this.

Of course, if you are working Summer leagues or sub-varsity, R2 problable will have bought a ticket to the action and will never have left 2nd base. So then your job will be easy. Come to think of it, never mind the above scenario becaues no one plays ball like we used to, anymore. I hardly see any agressive playing anymore so my actions as a former professional player problably are only avilable on 16mm instant replay! :D:D

Good arguing with you again LDUB (aka LubDub)!

DG --

That is clearly NOT the FED interp. There's a specific case play or interp where Rx tries to go for one part of the base, Fx blocks that part but leaves the opposite part open, then catches the ball and makes the tag. The ruling is that this is legal -- the ruling is that Fx must provide "some" access to the base, even if it's not the part that the runner wants.

That's my understanding of the interp as well. "Reasonable access" does not appear anywhere in the rules, cases, interps, etc.

That is not the interp given at our meeting. What is the case play? I would like to study it.

Actually, in the OP, the runner was called safe, so they DIDN'T pick off the runner.

Off course they would. But you're not presenting the other, more probable outcomes:
-runner at 3B with 1 out (pick-off successful).
-runners at 1B and 3B with 0 out (pick-off not successful).

8.3.2l

For those of you who are checking, that's an 'L', not an 'I'.

Thanks. That is NOT how it was explained at our state meeting.

PS. I have yet to see OBS called on a runner diving back to 1B on a pickoff, but then, the fielders are not blocking either.

I must bow to the fact that I was wrong in my answer to the OP. After discussing this with another Senior member of my association and using a white board, he proved to me that I was wrong in my answer.

The BU will cover the pickoff and take any play on R2 going to 3rd. The PU (who signaled that he was staying home) will drop back and watch the action at 1st and be available for obstruction and the pulled foot, should help be needed by the BU's request. PU will also turn and watch any subsequent action at 3rd and be prepared for R2 to round and come home. This is also in keeping with the CCA manual.

Again, my apologies....... I blew it! :eek:

I didn't want to say anything. I figured that you just had a brain cramp like we all do from time to time.