Help on dropped 3rd strike
 

I'm coaching a 12U rec team playing under USSSA. Our pitcher threw a pitch that the BR swung at and missed for strike 3. The catcher had to underhand the catch but the ball clearly hit his glove first, then bounced into the glove pocket (i.e., didn't hit the ground, then into the glove).

There was no indication of anything from the PU after the catch. I asked for time, the BU granted it, but the PU overruled and said no time granted. I asked my pitcher to proceed, he toed the plate, the batter stepped into the box, then the PU called the batter out.

Once he did that I understood why he didn't grant time or call the out on strike three and was waiting for one of a couple things to happen:

1. BR runs to 1B
2. Our pitcher or catcher tags him
3. BR "abandons" (don't know the right phrase) his right to advance due to dropped 3rd strike

My questions are -

1. The BU saw the pitch go in the glove and not hit the ground (granted, I'm assuming this because if he saw the play the same way as the PU he wouldn't have granted time). I doubt the PU did because the catcher's body blocked him. Is there any signal, other than a lack of signal, to look for in the future so I can instruct my catcher look for it and know he has to tag the BR?
2. Should he just tag him "in case"? I'm trying to avoid an unnecessary throw to 1B, potentially allowing base runners to advance, if possible.
3. Is there any mechanic the BU can use to indicate the ball was caught and a tag isn't needed? In no way, shape, or form would I want to instruct officials before, during, or after the game. I guess I'm trying to figure out if there is supposed to be coordination between the two in that situation.

Thanks in advance.

Everyone screwed up.

If the ball was caught then it's simple - call the strike and the out.

The PU obviously thought it was NOT caught or he would have called the out immediately.

If the ball wasn't caught then the PU should stand off to the side and wait for the light to go on in someone's head. There's no abandonment before reaching first. Even if you subscribe to Roder's "desertion" thought it shouldn't apply because the batter did not head for his position or the bench. At this level (12U rec) the PU could say "there's a play in progress guys".

Rufus, since you are a coach, I don't want to give you any secrets of the trade, however, in this case I'll share a simple trick both the Base Ump and Plate Ump can use. This is an advance mechanic that some will agree with and others may disagree with.

Ultimately, the decision rests with the plate umpire as he owns the battery.

The base ump can signal one way or the other if they are 100% sure what they saw and there may be some dispute. This signal is subtle and should not draw attention to the base umpire in any way and only should serve as help for the plate umpire in cases where they may have been screened out.

The Base ump can give an open palm or closed fist next to his hip. Open Palm = no catch, closed fist = catch. The Plate ump if unsure as to the status, can give a quick glance toward his partner in the field to determine which is which.

"I'm coaching a 12U rec team playing under USSSA. Our pitcher threw a pitch that the BR swung at and missed for strike 3."

Never happen. BATTER RUNNER is a term that identifies the offensive player who has just finished his time at bat until he is put out or until the play on which he became a runner ends.

Bob

Help on dropped 3K
 

This is the same mechanic used in our association and it works quite well. BTW, if you are "discussing" this with PU, I would never use the argument that you saw the BU do this or didn't.

nopachunts
Would never think of it. I referee HS basketball and can appreciate trade secrets. Was more curious if there was any kind of mechanic for umpires.

bluezebra
Would the correct term be Batter, then (since it was a caught strike three)? Not trying to get picky, just wanting to use the correct term. Thanks.

Simple solution. Teach your catcher to make a tag when the pitch is low. "Make sure of the out." I assume you coach that...same idea.

Your "batter" swung at and missed...the "B/R" stood there (because apparently PU thought it was a D3K) - answering since you asked.

Angel fans call this the-play-that-got-catcher-Josh-effin'-Paul-shipped-to-Tampa.

Correct mechanic around here is "strike, no catch" while giving a hammer and followed by a safe signal, if that is what PU is thinking. It should not be a mystery to anyone. Strike is not followed by out signal because there is not one yet.

Just to clarify "abandon" (OP's words) in this case.

6.09(b) Comment: A batter who does not realize his situation on a third strike not caught, and who is not in the process of running to first base, shall be declared out once he leaves the dirt circle surrounding home plate.

Note that this is different than in FED where the BR is not declared out until he enters dead ball territory (in most cases, the dugout or bench area).

[QUOTE]First Things First

NO UMPIRE can Overrule a Call of TIME by another umpire. There is a saying Once one umpire calls TIME we all call TIME.

OBR 5.10 The ball becomes dead when an umpire calls “Time.”

Once the BU Granted (called) TIME , TIME is out and cannot be over-ruled. Now the PU doesn't have to coverse with his partner about the play, BUT TIME is still out and the ball has to be made live again.

As far as the BU making the call he would have to be 100% CERTAIN he saw the clean- catch which from your description would be tough to see from 100 feet away. it's very difficult especially when dirt is scurrying around all over the place to know for certain if the ball hit the dirt first or the glove.

This is one area in which the Defensive coach and Offensive coach takes the blame.

if you are on offense the coach should simply instruct his battter to AUTOMATICALLY take off for first base on this type of play.

The defense namely F2 simply needs to tag the BR "just in case"

So while the umpires might not have followed proper mechanics, in a nutshell this is the coaches fault. As mentioned all F2 needed to do was simply tag the BR END of story.

Pete Booth

Well Angel's fans are a curious bunch anyways...with their monkey mascot and all. :D

I'm not one of the monkey guys. Strictly a red shirt guy ... no monkey, no thunder sticks.

That's a relief...and I'm still not bitter from the 2002 World Series at all...:eek:

"closed fist = catch"

what does an open fist look like?

There's this pal-o-mine, who's been waiting all his life for the Giants to win. He was their batboy for years, and is still friends with guys like both Willies, Vida, Madlock, Jack Clark, Darrell Evans, et.al. He's as insane a Giants fan as there can be.

When Bonds overran that flare down the line in Game 6, and with that Little League maneuver of his, tried to pick it up with his glove and dropped it, and allowed Anderson to get to second, resulting in the go-ahead run being in scoring position, necessitating his playing shallow for Glaus, who dropped a fly ball behind him and opened the door for the Angels' comeback and win ... man! After that game, my bud reacted the same way I did after the Donnie Moore debacle 16 years earlier: I-know-it's-not-over-but-there's-no-way-we'll-win-after-this. He was despondent before Game 7 was even played.

It is fittingly wonderful, however, that Bonds--a guy who literally dominated an entire season and post-season offensively--would make a Little League defensive blunder that would directly cost his team the World Series. All the juice in the world won't help you make a fundamental effort on defense. And defense preserves leads. They needed a complete player out there, not some Herculean slugger who doesn't put out.

There are baseball gods, and they were at work in that one.

Hey, that's how I felt in '85. Most people forget that Denkinger's call was in game 6... not game 7.

Over time, though, I've gotten to the point where I really don't mind. I figure that's the last time the Royals will get a chance to win the Series anyway!

Bret Saberhagen plays in the senior league games around here. He mainly plays shortstop.

Somebody, b***h slapping you into the next county.:p:p

Ouch!! :-) that open fist hurts way more than that closed fist...I guess all I'm saying is that if your partner is going to give you a secret sign, he might as well signal so everybody else can see it too...esp if you're going to appeal to him anyway.

The point of being subtle is to not let everyone know what you've got incase the plate ump has something different.

Remember the plate ump owns the battery (Pitcher, Catcher, Batter). Anything affecting them can cause major problems. The only reason for the signal is in-case the plate guy was screened out he can check quickly without holding up the game, calling if you had a catch, thus putting one team at an advantage or dis-advantage.

I have used this before, as the plate ump, my partner gave me the closed fist, I signaled the strike (I'm a pointer), unsure since it was low and I heard the pop but then saw dust and the catcher initially gloved it between his legs, glanced down to my partner, saw the fist, came back and gave the hammer (2nd signal for the out). Coach requested time, I granted, he asked me to check if it was a dropped 3rd, I told him quickly and convincingly that I already had. He accepted and went back to the dugout. End of story.

okay, I can see your point about PU and BU having two different thing...but only if PU has strike or swing and BU has ball or no swing...but what about your partner only signaling if he has a "swing" or "strike" a ball is a ball right? if your partner has ball who cares right?

If you are the base ump, you are only giving information on the catch / no catch. Whether the swing is checked or not is something entirely different. Don't confuse the two. On a check swing you only give information when asked, don't rule unless asked because now you are putting one team at an advantage. On those close ones that are possibly checked, a quick point down with a question of "Did he Go" should occur immediately. Then if you've got a dropped K3 you can rule on that.

The point of the open / closed fist is to subtly assist the plate ump if they get screened, which should be rare if not at all. If done properly as the base ump, no one knows you've done it except your partner who just glanced down with his eyes. Example, you're in hands on knees set, pitch is made, you're following the pitch also watching for ck'd swing, batted ball, ect. You see ball cleanly into glove, however, you see it bounce out and the catcher is on it quickly, you slowly stand up and hold your right hand next to you hip with an open palm toward home. It looks natural, and no one sees you do it except your partner.

Most Cardinals fans also forget the follow up single by Balboni, the can of corn foul pop up dropped by Clark, and the whipping the Cards took in game 7, 12-0, complete with Whitey Herzog ejection.

:)