We had a similar thread to this about a month ago, but I had a sutuation this weekend which made me question this again.

I was PU for an 11 year old blue/grey all star game and working with a FU who I have worked with many times before and have great respect for. Unfortunately, he had a tough day. On two different calls, he was in a straight line to the play and could not see a salient fact. The first was a lifted foot from first, and the second was a missed tag down the second base line.

My question is this. I looked in the book and it clearly states that I cannot "criticize, seek to reverse, or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it." But, what if you see an egregious error made because you can see something that your partner cannot? Do you absolutely have to wait to be asked for assistance on a call, or can you do anything proactively?

We got the first one sorted out, but the second one stood because I did not feel like there was anything I could do about it without being asked.

Any thoughts?

Wait until you are asked for "help."

David,

There's no one to blame but the manager on the those. If he can't get the proper mechanics right, too bad. Missed tag, pulled foot, ball on the ground are all calls that have a possibility of being reversed IF the manager asks the calling umpire to get help. Don't kick yourself for the mistakes of others.

Kyle

Did it or didn't it?
 

Gotta go with your partner's judgement . . . however faulty it may be. I had a Stan Musial game this past weekend. Low fences in the outfield. Ball apparently hit as a home run in straight away center. I'm PU; partner is BU. I'm watching R2 touch 3rd and BR touching all the bases. He calls it a bounce over; ground rule double. Half the crowd goes crazy! He calls me over . . . I ask him, "Are you absolutely positive it bounced over? It looked like it flew over to me." He say, "Nope. I saw it bounce." Okay. So I call BR back to 2nd base, explain to the irate coaches and teammates that it's a ground rule double. Let's play. I get back into position behind the catcher almost ready to yell "Play", my partner comes running in from Position C . . . . "Wait, wait, wait. I've got a home run. I just asked the Centerfielder if it went over and he said it did." Oh my! (What's the odds of finding an honest defensive player in this case?)

To add to the anecdote, another homer (obvious one) was made by the opponents a couple innings later. Jokingly, we all told the BU, "Hey Mike . . . the Right Fielder said it bounced over." Everyone chuckled . . . and everyone was "gratefully" kind-hearted through the whole ordeal.

Jerry

Hmmmmmm,
 

Dave:

I always have a problem when one umpire sez:

"My partner obviously missed the call!"

After working for more than three decades in all levels of baseball where players are of shaving age I have seen strange things -- however, I am not sure that each umpire is the best judge of what the other umpire sees and calls.

Several things happen during a game (and a call) that influence things . . . just because the "view" from your area "seems" to be giving a different sample of information it DOES NOT mean what you have seen is correct.

You can believe it in your heart all you want BUT WHAT MAKES YOUR VIEW CORRECT?

If a partner doesn't ask, it is your job to let things finish . . . be available to give input if asked but other than that keep to yourself.

Those that want to jump on the "get the call right at all costs" USUALLY mean a rule or the setting aside of information, NOT just seeing and disagreeing with the call.

Branda, were you at my game?! :)
 

This exact situation happened to me this weekend. My partner, who has been calling ball for over 40 years, missed a clear tag at second, because he was standing in the "A". Not a word out of the coaches. I didn't say anything.

Through high school and summer ball, I have been approached by coaches about this umpire and his "decrease" in abilities. Even some of the younger umpires and I have discussed his abilities. Most of the coaches around here know and even played while he was calling through the years.

It is obvious when working with him, that he has problems seeing the ball. He readily admits that he can't hear out of one ear(not necessarily a bad thing) and he consistently stays rooted in one spot. I don't want to say anything because he is considered the grandfather of umpires in this area and this is my rookie year. His actions, judgement and abilities are clearly waning and it is starting to create a bad impression of the assocation our abilities.

At what point do you step up and say enough is enough? Do you approach the guy and try and elicit a graceful exit or do you approach the members of the board and make your concerns known?

Tim - What happened on the lifted foot was that he was in C and had to look all the way across the diamond and simply could not see that the foot had come off the bag. As to the tag, he was on the 2B side of the runner and the "tag" was made on the 1B side so he could not see that the fielder did not have the ball in his glove when he tagged the runner with the glove.

I don't by any stretch mean to criticize. Let me say again that this guy is an excellent umpire. Superman could not have made those calls correctly from where he was standing because he did not have the angle. It also was not a bad mechanics situation, there were just too many base runners for him to be able to cover. I on the other hand was at home and had a perfect angle to see both plays, not because I did anything right, just because I happened to be standing in a better spot for that specific situation.

I just hate to see the kids get punished when there are two of us out there and we cannot necessarily make use of all of the information available to both parties.

Jump - sounds like you have a totally different situation than I do. Unless you have a whole lot more umps than we do, I say you thank him for being there and do the best you can. I would rather have your situation than constantly pulling dads out of the stand to waork the field.

David,

Those are two classic cases where it is incumbant the manager asks for help. When I'm behind the dish, I bust my hump to get down the line to see a pulled foot. Most of my partners will ask "Kyle, was he on the bag?" if they're out of position. If they don't ask me, and I do see it, it's up to the manager. We can't hold their hands on every call (although on some appeal plays we have to because of curfews).

Kyle

Kyle - OK, but if I understand the rule correctly, the manager can't ask you. He has to ask the FU who can then ask you. Correct?

This is what I am trying to understand. What kind of latitude do I have to act on what I see? Who can ask and when?

Dave . . .
 

I don't think the two of us can find a common ground on this issue.

You have played the "I don't want the kids to get screwed" card . . . yet most umpires I know understand that umpires do not win and lose games. There are just two many things that impact a game to stand that "the kids got screwed".

Dave, there are good calls, bad calls and obvious calls.

THERE IS NO BACKING ANYWHERE for one umpire to over rule the other. You can obviously give ANY information you want to the other umpire(s). Hopefully you would get together out of ear shot and talk through something that you thought was a "necessary" discussion item.

But never have I tried to overrule another umpire and cannot picture it.

Jon Bible talks a bout a great play with a fair/foul call on a home run. Jon saw the ball obviously go foul yet the other umpire called it fair.

Once the argument ensued Jon did everything he could to get his partner to ASK him for help. Once he did Jon explained the FU to the other umpire and THAT UMPIRE REVERSED HIS CALL. Even though Jon KNEW the call was wrong there was no way he was going to overturn the original call.

I am from the same school.

If we are in a position where mechanics and rules ALLOW to ask for help, and we do it (i.e. checked swing)then I support it, however umpires are even directed by the rule book that there is no OVERRULE allowed.

I have cringed my share of times at calls my partner made (and I am sure some of them winced as well) but there is no process to overrule things like safe/out, fair/foul, etc.

Now I fully support the UIC stopping the misapplication of a RULE (base award, etc) but not the correction of judgment calls.

BTW, I worked a game once where my base umpire (from my view at the dish) had a perfect day . . . seven calls on the bases and seven misses. I did nothing but grimace.

David,

The manager must ask the umpire who made the ruling. On a dropped ball, pulled foot, missed tag or rule misinterpretation the manager can request the ruling umpire ask for assistance. The only time a BU would "overrule" a PU would be on a HBP or foul ball off the batter. The BU can call those right away.

I was working a district tourney with my 13 year old son yesterday. After giving my pregame about what could and couldn't be questioned, on the first pitch a banger a first. The runner beat the ball by hair, but my son bangs him out. The manager wants me to overrule him. So I ask the manager if he thought there was a pulled foot. End of conversation. Bad call, yep. And my son was the first to admit it (quietly, just to me between innings). Stuff happens. It's just goes with hats with the tiny bills.

Kyle

<i> Originally posted by brandda </i>

<b> Kyle - OK, but if I understand the rule correctly, the manager can't ask you. He has to ask the FU who can then ask you. Correct?

This is what I am trying to understand. What kind of latitude do I have to act on what I see? Who can ask and when? </b>

David since you asked, here's Carl Childress's FAB V on calls that may be changed.

<i> FAB 5 (When calls may be legally changed)

1. Half swing called a ball changed to strike. (OBR 9.02c CMTs 1, 2, 3)

2. Two umpires make opposite calls on the same play. (common sense: only one can be accepted)

3. An umpire misapplies a rule. (9.02b/c)

4. Home run changed to double, vice versa; fair to foul, vice versa on balls hit out of the park. (professional practice)

5. "Out" called on a tag play, but the ball falls free, and another umpire observes it. (JEA 9:15-16)

The Terrible Three (Three times a call CANNOT be legally changed after it's made)

1. Swipe tag
2. Force play (or play on BR at first)
3. Fielder on/off the bag

ANY call can be corrected:

Carl: "He's out!" Then, immediately: "No, no, no. Safe! The runner is safe!!" That's bad timing -- but it's legal. </i>

I would recommend using the aformentioned as your guide as to when calls can be changed.

Another way to look at this is the following. All of us at one time or another have called a <b> bad </b> strike. It happens we are all human. To me even though a batter gets 3 of these, one <b> bad </b> strike call is equivalent to a BU making a bad call on the bases.

If the pitch was in the dirt but you called it a strike would you want the BU to Chime right in and say No that was a ball? I don't think so. We all want to get the call right but the fact is we will NOT get every call right.

There are certian calls that belong to the BU and to the PU. As much as we might not like it we cannot overturn our partner unless they ask for help. IMO that's how it should be as any other way, the game could get in the state of chaos.

Since TEE mentioned Jon Bible. I read one of his articles and in it he mentioned that he made a call, but then heard all sorts of moans and groans and in his opinion that sometimes means "hey I better get some help"

Most good umpires will ask for help, they don't have to but most do on the calls in which they can.

Now if it's a continuous type action play, then to put it mildly <b> You are on your own </b> it's virtually impossible to try and go back and correct a call when there's <i> a ton of action </i> on the bases.

Pete Booth

Let Grandfather Decide
 

Perhaps if this "veteran" umpire really knows the rules he can serve as a school instructor or roving evaluator. If his skills have really deteriorated due to age he should not be assigned to the higher level ballgames. Despite all this if over the years he has been competent and approchable I would remember the good old days and try to figure out why he earned that respect. It is never the position of any umpire to speak poorly of another umpire especially when that umpire is your partner. If someone suggests "old Gus" ain't what he used to be I'd simply say that he is doing the best he can and isn't that what we all should do between the lines.

If the FU does not see have good view, he should immediately go to the PU and ask, "Did you see a tag?".

Don't make the call as the FU, THEN ask for help!

A pulled foot should be a non issue. Every FU should TRY to put himself in position to make that call!

And the manager. He CAN'T make you go to your partner. He can ask you, but you can say no. It is your call, don't look worse by having the manager sweet talk you in to going to your partner. Stand tall!

So you go to your partner and he reverses it? He looks like the bad guy. Go to you partner before you make a decision.

Dude, you have only ONE friend out there the whole time and that is your partner. I have see a lot of calls that I KNOW my partner erred on, however if I were to "jump out of the weeds" holloring the latter and reversing the call...we both loose our integrity. We may as well hand them a bat since we would just be giving them another stick to hit us with, and every play from then on would be under scrutiny. So, bad news...bite your lip, turn your head kick some dirt but speak when spoken to. There is never shame in that. JT

One Friend?
 

Sooner:
Believe me, Sooner, there are times when I've got more friends and fans on the field and in the stands than my partner is to me. In 20 years of officiating, I've had my share of idiots as partners (and so have they, I'm sure). I've had arrogant and officious oafs overrule me, put their arm around their "drinking buddy" coach and laugh about the "bad call" I've made, their sons playing in the game, etc. You get the picture. The BEST we can do is to officiate our own game to the best of our ability, support our partner when asked and be as professional and cordial as you can to all the participants, including your partner. Even if I have a personality clash with a partner however, I would NEVER try to overule him or show him up. But I don't have to be friends with an idiot.
Jerry

Pulled foot a non-issue!? I guess you've never worked on the small diamond, in the C position, with the sun in your eyes, and a ball hit to 6 with long reach by 3. Foot on the bag? That's when you hope your PU has a good angle. Me, I'm flippin' coins from over in the C. I'll make the call and see if the manager knows his job.

Kyle

While having never worked a small diamond game,
 

over 3,100 games, maybe 1,000 of those on the bases, I have never asked for help from the PU on a pulled foot on a play at first.

Lean and a peek have ALWAYS worked for me.

Huh?
 

Kyle,
First of all . . . as an official, it's expected you know the rules. That's not what you get paid to do. You get paid for your judgement. If you're "flipping coins", you not doing what you're being paid to do.

A small diamond, C-position, a ball hit to F6 and you can't get into the proper position to see a pulled foot? What the heck are you doing when the ball is hit? Staying where you're at? With three steps, you should be able to button-hook to a great spot to see the entire play at 1st base. If for some reason you need help, ask your partner before calling anything? But it's your call, dude!

Jerry

I Tend To Agree With Jerry,
 

... but all that aside, I ALWAYS tell my partner that I respect his (or her) opinion on close calls. I want to know if I've made a grave error.

Proper position generally cuts down on missed calls, but as noted by several folks, there are times when it's impossible to be everywhere at once.

If you're moving, you can make most calls.

Working with a partner requires that your partner work with you too!

No coin flips! (LOL) I know it was just a "figure of speech". Just call it an "educated guess!"

Experience, my friends.
 

Sometimes, "flipping a coin" is a way to make a judgement call. In many games, you've only got two umpires . . . at most! You've got to call something, and process a lot of information in a very short period of time. You should never, ever be in a position where you ask your partner if he "agrees" with your call; or if you think you've "blown" it. As old-timer MLB Umpire Marty Springstead says, "You've got a baseball traveling in excess of 100 mph, athletes at the top of their game, and a "banger" play going on . . . and you're worried about what you're gonna call! Heck, call SOMETHING." The same is true even on the small diamonds with the sun shining in your eyes. You've gotta trust your own judgement, is the point I want to make. And you've got to live with your own decisions. If you've blown it, you've blown it. Get in a better position the next game; and learn from your "blown" calls. No matter how many partners you ask . . . I guarantee you . . . YOU WILL STILL GET SOME CALLS WRONG!!! Call something . . . and deal with what comes next.
Jerry

working together!
 

In my association, we use a couple of signals for those bangers at first. As PU moves up first and gets set, he is watching for a pulled foot, BU moves into position and sets, waiting on the "snap. . .thud". If the PU has a pulled foot, he will place his hand flat against his belly, if he has an out he will place his fist against his belly. As a BU, if you can see it great, you have an extra set of eyes on the play, if you can't. . .well, that's what you get paid for. It's not foolproof, nor relevant in every situation, but it has helped me out this year and it helps with communication, teamwork and hustle by the umpire team.

Careful!
 

And what if your partner doesn't see or look for the flat hand on your belly, and rings up the runner? Oh . . . but the coach sure did! Or you've got a partner who's not in your association and doesn't know the "secret" hand signals? Or chooses to ignore your signal, because he feels his judgement is just as good/bad as yours? What if you're blocked out from a pitch because the catcher popped up in your eyesight just as the curve ball broke over the middle of the plate? You want your partner to "signal" a strike to you? Or a "banger" (as you describe it) at home plate where he's at 3rd base looking down the line and clearly sees the catcher miss the swipe tag? You want him to signal you somehow for reassurance? As BU or PU, you've each got responsibilities and you've each got judgements that have to be made. If for some reason (like a heart attack or stroke) you miss a play, THEN maybe you'd want to seek help from your partner. Otherwise, you've got to call what YOU see. That's your job!
Jerry

Secret Signals are for Clubs
 

NEVER NEVER NEVER fall for someone telling you they have a "Secret Signal" . . . "SS" are the worst crutch for umpiring:

Reason:

1) They seldom stay "secret" coaches learn them then they are open season,

2) Calls need to be made by the person that owns the call . . . if you need help there is NO REASON ON EARTH for you not to just ASK FOR HELP!

3) We have enough signals that are not secret but neessary for communicating during a game. Everything from Infield fly Situation to Rotation are good solid forms of communicating and enough for good umpires to keep in mind.

4) Umpiring is NOT voting . . . if another umpire is given information before asked what does this say about you and your call.

Please disregard SECRET SIGNALS, they don't accomplish a darn thing.

Listen to Jerry . . . he knows of what he speaks.

Not secret signals
 

Jerry,
you have brought up some very good points, but you are missing something key. We are a TEAM on the field, we don't have to be friends, and we darn sure can't see everything. So if my signal helps my partner out, ok, great! If not, ok, it is still his call to make and I sure won't overrule him on it.

3/4 of the guys that I work with are not in my association. I ALWAYS do a pregame with my partner, and we cover signals, including infield fly on/off, timing play, I'm moving, caught third strike, even GLMs :)(jj), etc. This is a routine part of my pregame.

The point is we all use signals to communicate situations on the field, but we never lose the responsibilty to make certain calls. This has worked for the guys in my association. If you choose to use this, use it correctly and happy trails! If not, ok, I'll still sleep tonight.

[Edited by jumpmaster on Jun 18th, 2002 at 02:49 PM]

Re: One Friend?
 

Jerry,

That is way too bad to hear about some of your partners, I have not had that trouble; Yet I have not been working 20 years. Here we are a bit cliqish with our umps, but there is so much bravado about each other's pride in working that I do not see that happening. I suppose my thread is a bit regionalized. JT

Jerry,

I can get in a position to see the play, just not if F3 has his foot on the edge of the bag or 1/2" off. My partner, who is 1/3 of the way down the first base line, has the angle. You're saying I shouldn't take advantage of the PU's hustle to do his job and get the angle? Or, are you somehow saying the PU shouldn't bother with getting out behind the dish and getting the angle?

Man, if I'm in D, C or even B, and I know the PU is busting out to do his job, I'll point in with my left hand, ask if F3 was on the bag, and then make my call. That's the way I was taught. But if I'm working with a slug who's planted behind the plate, I won't bother.

Kyle

I am not Jerry however,
 

Kyle:

This is not about "slug" PU's who don't move out from behind the dish. We have all worked with those guys.

This has everything to do about the BU doing his job and owing the responsibility of HIS calls.

Jerry and I both freely admit to being "old school" and working hard to have our own view of the issues on this call.

I can go on-and-on about the history of two man mechanics (and most likely will in another thread one day) but what we want is for your side to recognize that HARD WORK by the BU can also take care of this issue.

As stated above I worked for more than three decades up upper level ball and never had the need to ask on the pulled foot or sweep tag at first base. My feeling is that the BU owns the call and needs to make that call.

I attended Brinkman twice, extended Spring Training once, Four Multiple Day Pro Clinics, a half dozen One Day Classes taught by MLB Umpires and those classes have ALWAYS taught, "live with your own call!"

I respect your right to use the PU if you feel necessay but I also contend that an experienced BU should never be in the position to even need to ask.

Kyle, some of us old hides are hard to change. We believe that if a play is made and nothing "strange" happens (i.e. the throw pulls a fielder off the base during a force-out, etc.) that calls really make themselves . . .

I think what I am asking is that you recognize the passion that Jerry and I feel in an umpire working hard enough to insure that he can own his own call.

Sorry about the ruckus!
 

First, there is no excuse for non-hustle by the PU or the BU. Your call is your call, live with it. This is constantly taught, retaught and occasionally beaten into us in the local association. (jj)

Second, the "old guys" in my association realize that we have the same problems with turn-over of high school umpires as other associations do. In addition, few of our guys have attended an advanced camp of some sort. Therefore, we will not always have the top-notch cream on every baseball field every day.

Since we like the common sense solution around here, the "old guys" started using this signal as a means of assisting the younger officials. By NO means is this meant to be an excuse for poor mechanics or poor judgement. It is meant as a tool to assist. By coupling this with constant teaching, coaching and mentoring of young umpires our association has developed a reputation of developing excellent umpires. It works for us.

Guys,

I'm only working small diamond, and some Juniors. Sometimes when working the C, and hard hit ball to F6 will back me up, or even move me toward third. On close plays first, with F3 doing the splits, there's no way I've got an angle to see if F3 has his big toe on the bag or not. Why on earth wouldn't I ask, right away, to see if the PU saw the foot on the bag. It takes about 2 seconds. "Mike was he on the bag?", "Yes he was", "Out".

80' and 90' foot are a lot easier, you can actually see the base being deformed, because you're working inside and have the ability move toward the play. But in on a 60' field, and working the outside, you're often times pinched farther back than on the big fields.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but if I've got the plate, and there's a ball hit to the infield, with no runner on third, I'm busting down the line to see if F3 keeps his foot on the bag, and BR is in the lane. I'll get closer, set myself, and take in all the information. And I'll give my opinion when/if asked by the ruling umpire. What am I missing?

Kyle

Kyle,
 

Again, I ask you to understand that this is NOT about what the PU does.

As a PU, with no one on, hopefully we all follow the B/R down the line and are in postion to help if asked.

Even though I have NEVER asked for help when I am the BU when working the dish I am ALWAYS in place to offer help if asked.

Again, to make things clear, I have never called a small diamond game and have no idea what issues you deal with . . . I did, howver, call a freind who is the leading Little League (I doubt if what he works is the trademark "Little League" as discussed on these boards).

Jon simply said to me, "Tee, as guys develop in our group they normally ask for help at times early in their career then as they learn they ask less and less!

"But make one thing clear . . . we encourage them to ask if they need help!"

So Kyle please understand something:

Both Jerry and I work "Big Boy" ball (even to the NCAA level) where our issues may be different. All we ask our partners is to work hard, get position, and make the call to the best of their ability.

Have Fun!
 

Tee,
AMEN! If there's any legacy we can leave to the rookies .. . . make a decision and go on with the game. Inbrain . . . YOU ARE GOD!. Whatever the coaches, players, spectators think . . . mean absolutely nothing! Make a judgement, rule call and go on with it! Period! And for God's sake . . . . love what you do!

Jerry

same topic, different question
 

As a High School coach, I find it impossible to get an umpire to ASK for help. Any suggestions?

<b>"As a High School coach, I find it impossible to get an umpire to ASK for help. Any suggestions?"</b>

So many variables:

What are you asking him to get help for? Simple safe/out call? Fair/foul? Catch/no catch? You shouldn't get many umps to get help on these.

Rule application, rule interpretation? Ask nicely and almost all umps will agree to confer with their partner... privately. (Once they agree to confer, go sit down)

Pulled foot? Swipe tag? It's all in the asking. "GET SOME HELP BLUE!!!" just doesn't work.

"Excuse me ump, I know that was real close one and I noticed your partner was coming up the line to watch the play. Woould you mind seeing if he saw a pulled foot (swipe tag) on the play just in case you didn't have time to get to where you wanted to be on that? Thanks."

Even then, most umpires will only go for help before they make the call. And some know (by observing) that their partner did not have a good look for whatever reason. They are not going for help either.

One time I screwed up and left myself only a straight line view on a play at first that maybe did and maybe didn't pull F3 off. I went for help BEFORE I made the call.

In short, coach, umpires are not required to get help. Some will, some won't. "You pays your money, you takes your chances."(sic) You can increase you chances by picking those few times you ask very carefully and then asking nicely.


[Edited by GarthB on Jun 27th, 2002 at 12:55 AM]