Is and in what rule book does it have the rule, "A tie goes to the runner?

In baseball, there is no such things as a "tie". You can be "safe" or "out" by umpire judgement but it is impossible to judge a tie.

OBR is very specific as to when a batter is out. 6.02(j) . . . he or first base is tagged BEFORE he touches 1st base. I suppose that if you, as an umpire, determines that it was a virtual "tie" . . . (which is actually a physical impossibility under the laws of relativity), then you'd have to call the batter "safe". By inference, that could be interpreted as "A tie goes to the runner", but in actuality the judgement was made that the action was done either BEFORE or AFTER; not at the same time.

Jerry

And on a force at any other base the runner has to touch the base BEFORE he is tagged, so there the "tie" goes to the fielder.

Ain't no such thing.

Very interesting question, and a lot of fun to think about. Here's my two cents:

The notion that there cannot be a tie is dependent on the notion that the moment the ball contacts the glove and the moment the runner's foot contacts the base can be defined such that they are infinitesimal points of time, that with perfect measuring equipment, the exact moment of contact could be defined as a unique instant. But it can't.

Perhaps with the best measuring devices, some sort of atomic stopwatches, ball-glove and foot-base moment of contact could be differentiated to a billionth of a second. Who knows?—maybe a trillionth. But obviously not an "infinitesmal" part of a second. And at the subatomic level, "moment of contact" begins to fall apart. If we stop-framed at a trillionth of a second and viewed such that electrons were the size of baseballs, "moment of contact" would be ambiguous. We could not say, "Aha! Right there! Foot touched base at frame number 889,268,141,006." Throw in relativity and the angle of the observer to the play, and the fact that the ball is moving faster than the runner could make the play look safe to one observer and out to another.

A similar philosophical-theoretical problem applies to the notion that no two raindrops hit the ground at exactly the same time. The question breaks down with the definition of "hit."

It would be interesting to know how accurate a human eye would be. Out by one second is out by a mile; you wouldn't even have to call it. I would guess that out by a tenth of a second would be close but clear. But how about a hundredth of a second? Certainly at some point not too far from there we'd have an apparent tie.

A friend of mine, a professor of aerospace engineering at Princeton, says he knows a theoretical physicist baseball fan who has written on the physics of baseball, things like just how much bat speed, weight, hardness, give, etc., affect distance. I think he says that if pitchers could get just a little more spin on their curve balls, the breaks would be much larger. Anyway, maybe that guy could be persuaded to write on the theoretics of ties.

In the meantime, maybe it's better to say, "Apparent tie goes to the runner."

Sorry guys. Your all wrong!


TIE GOES TO THE UMPIRE!

And I know what Im calling.

Ha! I'm using that in my pre-game for ToC this weekend.

"Ok boys, we all know that ties go to the umpire, and today's tie-breaker is the number of GLM's in your bleachers. Have a good game, and help your catchers on with their gear".

Manager to coach "Quick Larry, get out the rule book from the bottom of the ball bucket and look up GLM, it must be some new tournament rule."

Kyle

Ah, I almost forgot the pleasure of doing Little League.

GLM'sss

While I find the GLM thread to be hilarious, let's be careful here. Just a couple of weeks ago we had a thread on why there were not more female umpires. Can't have it both ways.

Hey I just noticed Im a Senior Member, someone must of found out.

Your right brandda. I apologize if taken the wrong way but, somethings are just beautiful in nature and I enjoy myself at every game. It just so happens that sometimes LL is more enjoyable than other times.

Don't take things for granted. Some might think GLM means "Good Looking Male".

Bob

Ties go the Runner!
 

Actually, on Father's Day, more ties go to fathers than anyone else. So, if a runner is a father, then in reality, ties do go to the runner.

Hawaian Shirts, on the other hand, go to the fielders.

greymule, you should get out more.

GLMs, the one good thing about parents at ballgames.

On Ties...
 

Try this idea...

A baseball partner and long-time friend suggests this to all of the umpire recruits at our clinics:

"The runner is either coming to a base or going away from the base."

The rules are clear - as always, but sometimes quoting a specific rules isn't too helpful on a banger at first in a tight game. I use this philosophy almost as a religious mantra when working the bases, and it hasn't failed me - yet!

This is especially useful in any ballgame where the bases are closer than 90 feet and the runners a little faster.

I use the GLM count only as a secondary approach.

OK,
 

The definition of "Getting Old", as an umpire, is that when working a high school game, you no longer notice the high school girls, you instead notice the GLM's.

So Sad!

Re: OK,
 

sad but true! I have to admit also....

GLM is part of the calculation for batting average when drafting kids on our teams also.

If you don't notice the high school girls, especially these days with the way they dress, you're not old, you're dead!
:)

But Dave - we used to just notice the HS girls. Now the next thought is "how much jail time would I get?"

Based upon how this discussion ended up, I think all of us have just qualified as DOM's. Im proud of that.

Thanks to all who replied on Tie" goes to runner...helped settle an argument between this umpire who knows,and wife and child who has listened to too many voiceful fans,and TV broadcasters...

In the event that a runner is touching a base as he is being attempted to be retired(i.e., a tie) there is never a safe call. The rule says that the runner has to touch the bag BEFORE he or the bag is touched, whatever scenario applies, to be called safe. If it is a "tie", then he did not beat the throw or tag...therefore...OUT! JT

Careful. You're only 3/4 correct.
 

Careful there, Sooner. Your discussion isn't valid for a BR going to 1st base. He (or the bag) needs to be tagged BEFORE reaching the base. You're correct for the rest of the bases or if R1 is returning to the base.

Jerry

<i> Originally posted by mwoods </i>

<b> Is and in what rule book does it have the rule, "A tie goes to the runner? </b>

As others mentioned there is no rule, but here's a rule of thumb.

If the defense makes a great play, (ie; F6 makes a great play in the hole) and it's real close at first give benefit of doubt to defense and record the out, however,

If the defense doesn't field ball cleanly or the player is <i> lazy </i> on a routine ball, and B1 is busting it out down the first base line, then give benefit of doubt to offense. In other words, reward a good play either way.

Pete Booth

The batter going to first is not a force per the force definition, thus there are separate rules for the batter and the other runners.

The rule for the batter at first is 6.05(j) "Tie" to runner.

The rule for forced runners is 7.08(e) "Tie" to fielder.

So why dont you go back in time and write the rules the way YOU want them to read.

When are people going to understand that we are dealing with human beings. WE AINT PERFECT. This sickness in sports that everything has to perfect in officiating is ruining the games. And that is what they are, GAMES. When are they gonna make a perfect batter? Last I heard 300 was a good average. Heck, thats subpar for almost everthing else in life. The computer age has made us realize that we can now divide a number into infinite parts and therefore we belive that exactness is necessary in everthing we do.

Dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with change and improvements in sports and everything else, it is necessary. However,lets keep things in perspective. Next thing you know we will have electronic devices to tell if the runner was really out or safe. How about instant replay!

When the everything becomes perfect, then we will do perfect thing. Not before.

Tying?!
 

Are you tying?!

ARE YOU TYING?!

There's no tying!

There's no tying in Baseball!


Repeat after me fellow umpires: "There's no such thing as tie coach". Life will be so much easier for you.

Kyle

Re: Tying?!
 

Amen.

larjoranj (Large Orange?) offered:
<b>It does not address what happens if the play is a tie.</b>

That is simply because there is no tie in baseball. Decisions have to be made. One thing happened before the other, always.

I have a standard offer for all coaches. I keep a $50 bill in my wallet for any coach who can find tie, hands part of the bat, or automatic strike for batter leaving the bat over part of the plate on a withdrawn bunt attempt in the OBR. I have yet had to pay.

My other open offer: a $50 donation to the end of season party at PONY level and a $50 contribution to the team for any purpose at upper levels for a three pitch inning. (half inning, actually)

I've paid out on that one four times in my career.

[Edited by GarthB on Jun 20th, 2002 at 12:49 PM]

New Rule Regarding Ties
 

Rule 6.66 - In the event of a tie at any base and during any play, the UIC shall immediately overule his/her partner and direct both teams to have a "do over", just as if no action had occurred prior to the apparent tie. If any runners have advanced to any base, they shall all be returned to the base acquired at the time of the pitch.

Personally . . . I'd go with the advice to umpires . . .repeat after me . . . "There's no such thing as a tie; there's no such thing as a tie; there's no such thing as a tie."

Jerry

An old sage once reminded a group of trainees that the defense has had to do a lot to get a runner out. If they cleanly field, throw and receive the ball on a force play any so-called "tie" goes to the defense as this is pretty much what the coaches expect. His reminder was, "We get paid to call outs."