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Gray Area Strikes
Have been contemplating the gray area for 2009.
At lower levels of baseball I call every strike I can resonably get. As the talent level moves up, my strike zone tightens up. High School Varsity Pitch low in the strike zone that could be called either way. (Gray Area) You want to be consistant so would you lean toward strikes or balls and why. High in the strike zone? Inside/Outside?? Before someone claims the strike zone is the strike zone, umpires are human and you have to decide what you just observed and your decision will be inaccurate at times. |
I'm tight without trying. I've grown up as a hitter, and a hitting instructor and my son's a big slugger, so I've naturally developed into a hitter's umpire. I have heard guys who say they call the plate, plus the width of two balls on either side. I virtually always call only a strike a strike, and I don't care how long the game is. I know that at some of the higher levels, the pitchers expect a wider zone, and I hope not to make those guys throw too many pitches, but I take the strike zone seriously and I don't want to cheat 18 hitters.
High School varsity and above: Corners: I call the ball that's scraping the black a strike. If the guy nails his spot a couple of inches off the corner (3 in. tops) and the catcher sticks it, it's a strike. Otherwise, I ball it. Bottom: If the top of the ball appears to pass at the bottom of the guy's kneecap, I have a strike. Top: If the bottom of the ball appears to scrape the top of the belt, I have a strike. I also think I am a little less apt to have a strike on a high fastball than a high bender. I do hear the C-word a hell of a lot: Consistent. |
I think Finnerty has a good zone philosophy and....
way of explaining it.
I subscribe to the same zone as Finnerty for high school varsity, legion and college. I will move it up for younger players to just under the letters of the shirt (approximately one-half the distance between the armpits and the belt). An NCAA D-1 head coach (SEC) (former pitching coach) and I discussed strike zones this fall during fall ball. He had asked the other umpires working to call any pitch that they had even the slightest bit of doubt about- a strike. He looked at me and said, you I don't need to ask you that. I considered it a complement. Of course he had seen me before and knew my philosophy. Sometimes the college hitters early in the game will ask "is that as low as it gets?" when i call a lower end of the zone strike. I usually tell them if it is. If it isn't I will say "I'm not sure yet". So far no complaints from anyone. My opinion and advice-call everything that is close a strike and later in the game you don't have to call anything close as the batters become hitters and swing the bats. I usually have five or six called K3's in the first 3 or 4 innings of a game (both teams) and after that, rarely do I have to ring anyone up. |
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strikes baby!
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Every ball that leaves the pitcher's hand is a strike unless it proves itself to be otherwise!
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You da man!!!!! |
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Regarding borderline pitches I would agree with Kevin F. |
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Call strikes. Yes, be consistent, and don't get ridiculous, but call strikes. Don't think about being a hitter. Pause, Read, React. Your timing is the key.
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Lastly, Ozzy offers some good advice I've heard more than once. |
Thank you, gentlemen.
The validation feels pretty good, that's for sure. |
We were told us at a college camp that the plate is 17" and the ball is 2.5" wide so really you just expanded the plate by 5" wider, cause any part of the ball that touches the plate should be called a strike right? So if that outside pitch touched the outside of the edge of the plate it should be called a strike right?
Plus you can even go almost another ball outside of that, the coaches and fans cant see inside and outside just up and down in the strike zone right? |
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Ring, Ring
Call strikes from the moment you arrive at the game site. The game is better that way. I can't tell you I call two balls off the black. When they look like strikes to me, I call them strikes. I've never gotten into trouble being large. I usually get in trouble when I'm tight. I try to get them swinging early.
When I'm on, I'm consistent. When I'm off, I'm all over the place. If I call one up at the chin, look out. I don't like to ump angry but I'm better when I do. If the entire ball is inside the inner batter's box lines on either side and the catcher sticks it, it's a strike. The inside edge of the ball can't be more than 2.5 inches off the plate. Well, maybe on an inside pitch it needs to touch the black. D |
Isn't this a great topic?
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Great point!
I can't see half inches anyway. I'll round up....and still call it a strike! D |
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Yeah!
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please... at walmart..... most people will call a strike outside of the one that is right off the plate... if the catcher sticks it, and its right off the plate... Im giving it to him. |
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Both are great comments. Get the strikes be consistent. |
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Let me ask you this. Do you call the low bender that crosses the front of the plate at the knees but hits the dirt a strike? How about the high bender that the catcher catches at his mask? The ball hit the zone at the back of the plate. And finally, my favorite, the lefty who throws that mean slider, hits the front corner and the catcher catches it a foot and a half outside. All are true strikes but all will have your lunch for such a calls. College coaches want strikes, consistency, strikes, game management and oh by the way, did I mention strikes. Let me say that in this case, strikes = any and all legitimate percieved strikes. The only real true strike zone is the one that I am calling that day. Just like an OOO, an OOSZC causes more trouble than I care to deal with. To each his own, I guess. |
HS varsity and older
A pitch is nothing until I call it something, and I'm not predisposed either way.
The 1" black isn't part of the plate, and gives the proper amount of leeway on close pitches in and out. If it hits the black--strike. If it doesn't--ball. Batters with a well-developed eye for the strike zone deserve to make a living, too. A pitch that "sticks" a catcher's mitt set up 2" off the black screams "ball" to me, and is usually met by the defensive bench with "Good spot to miss!" (unless it's a 3-2 count or there's two outs in a crucual situation, in which case they come to the top step and yell, "Dammit, we gotta have that pitch!") Bottom of the front knee and the navel represent the "black" at the bottom and top of the zone, but style points count for something. A catcher who butchers a strike at the margins can cause me to call it a ball. That's a game-control device, which means something to me. The benches nearly always complain less when that's employed. That's a general sense. A guy who throws strikes consistently probably gets a pitch or three that a guy who can't hit the ground when he trips on the curb doesn't get. I'm not suggesting my way is "right"; it's what works for me. |
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The first part's very true; you have to adjust if you do different levels.
The second part's somewhat true, but for the fact that the majority of guys who'll tell you that aren't interested in fairness, but in how soon they get to leave the ballpark that day. |
I'm just saying that if you're calling strikes at two ball widths on the inside part of the dish, you may get more grief than you should. I've had really good instructors tell me to do so, but IMO, that's not a hittable pitch, and it's definitely not a strike.
But Bob and Kevin make good points. If your area wants that called, and you get less grief that way, roll with it. |
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Midway between belt and shoulders is considerably higher than top of the belt. I generally use the bottom of the elbows to define the top of the zone. The elbows are generally midway between belt and shoulders.
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You can't go by that. |
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I'm generous out and not so generous in. Up and down letters to the knees. Coaches can ***** about up and down that they can see. It's hard for them to see in and out. If I'm the same for both teams I'm guessing I'm being fair. |
I have seen some long barn-burners that were great, and some short, low-scoring games that sucked. I am not concerned with how long a game is except for game management concerns. I like everything about being out there and I'm in no rush to get home.
As for the zone, I think I'm with you, except for the high part, Gordon. I guess I've never been able to go up to the pit of the stomach (which is the midpoint between the top of the shoulder and the top of the uniform pants, no matter where the letters are). I suppose getting trimmed for calling it too often by the better coaches and hitters shaped my zone a little. Also, it's the pitch you get the best look at. It's easier to keep that line at the top than at the bottom. Now, occasionally a high big bender gets called. :D |
For the top, I use one ball above the belt, no matter how it got there, fastball or deuce. With good pitching skippers see where the ball ends up more than where it hit the plate. Haven't had many complaints about it College or HS Varsity.
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If there's somewhere I would go to stretch out my zone, I would go daylight between ball and belt first, so that sounds a lot like where I would end up when I'm done stretching.
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The bottom of a batters elbows are generally midway between belt and shoulders, in a normal stance, or at rest. If you guys are not calling a strike unless it nicks the belt or is no more than a ball above you are not calling the high strike and cheating the defense. Stand in front of a mirror, spread your hand as wide as you can and touch the top of your belt with your middle fingertip. The top of your thumb will be appoximately same as bottom of your elbows. Call the hand and you will be calling the high strike. The hand will be at least two balls and close to three, above the belt.
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I'd go there, but I wouldn't expect it to be a strike. I'd WANT it be a strike, though. Good thing I don't pitch AND umpire at the same time. I'd probably yell at, and then eject myself several times a game. |
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all levels for batters to crowd the plate. I got to believe it started at the "show" because "pitchers aren't allowed" to pitch inside. The first time it happens (it seems to be the case) both benches are warned. Nothing I enjoy more than getting a called third on a batter whose arms are over the plate. The only thing that can top that is calling a strike when a batter gets hit by a pitch because he's all over the plate. Quit being sympathetic to the hitter. How many times do they let the mediocre belt high fastball go by and then get pissed off at you when you ring them up on a called third. |
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I'm going to raise the top of my zone this year, but the top point will be the pit of the stomach or slightly below. Some uniforms have a logo that creeps down that far, some uniforms have a number in the perfect spot, some uniforms have a button in the right spot. But if a hitter's hands are in proper hitting position, his elbows are too high to use. |
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You are dreaming. Horse---- MLB hitters swing at those pitches. Or Vladi, who can't possibly be used in any conversation about conventional hitting. Vladi is the only true bad ball hitter in baseball that has gone that far out of the zone successfully since the '70s. It's not the general rule like you're saying. ... Kirby's wingspan was not different than a normal short guy. He was very strong. Another short guy with a lot of bombs: Jimmy Wynn--also very strong and the rare guy with a season of 140-plus walks and 140-plus strikeouts ... And just because a bad hitter like Ryan Howard would swing at a pitch two balls off the plate is not a good reason to call it a strike on a brilliant hitter like Mark Teixiera. |
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How did you make that leap from one ball off the corner, outside only, if it's caught right? With all due respect, you have gone way off course and you are not accurate in your recalling of what was said previously. You claimed that MLB hitters swing at pitches two balls off the plate and that it should be called at that level. I addressed it. They don't swing at that pitch routinely and it should not be called a strike. I can't go two balls off the plate on either side under any circumstances. It's unfair. And other than Jimmy Wynn, Rickey Henderson was another short guy that had more homers than Puckett, but he played twice as long. And I hate to admit it, but the very small Joe Morgan also had more and played twice as long. |
You're still losing me on the second part. You agree, but you disagree.
You want freedom to make the strike zone 28 inches wide, but you think we should all abide by the strike zone parameters in the rule book? And, they're not threads, they're posts. A thread is a topic, and a message is a post. |
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And the rest of that bat and arm length coverage stuff is as convoluted as it gets. |
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And please pass on the where-a-hitter-should-stand stuff. In fact, pass on all the hitting stuff. |
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The rule says the ball must be 9-9.25 inches in circumference. 9-9.25/π = a diameter of approximately 2.86-2.94 inches.
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Even if someone could draw a "picture", and everyone on this post finally came to an agreement on what the strike zone should be by definition, when the actual pitch crosses the plate, there would still be a difference as to what one umpire perceives as a ball hitting that strike zone, and what another umpire perceives as a ball hitting that strike zone.
Unfortunately, no matter how the strike zone is objectively defined and interpreted, it is still subjectively applied by each individual umpires own judgment. Umpires that are perceived to have a good consistent strike zone, whether it is a just a "little to tight" or a "little to liberal" will be the ones advancing to the highest levels possible on the umpiring ladder, while others will not progress as far. I believe one umpire said the players and coaches will verbally let you know what the strike zone should be at a particular level. Once you know those parameters, it is how "consistent" you remain throughout the "entire" game that matters. It has also been said, that no one "walks" to the big leagues. |
Ok here is a good view... you can see the older called strike zone, and what the zone should be called by definition in the blue shady part.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/ba...trike_zone.png |
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I made a vow never to be in any way medicated when I post in one of these forums. Since I am not medicated, I can't understand
SUmp's post. |
"The hitter is not part of the strike zone" is the kind of statement that makes you difficult to stay with.
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Umpmazza
Could you make a picture with the batter and the official strike zone (shaded in blue) and put a O (a little bigger O than I just did to represent the baseball) and show a pitch just nicking the bottom, top and both sides of the strike zone as well as the corners so that the younger umpires can see that the "whole" ball does not have to pass through the zone. As long as "any" part of the ball passes through "any" part of the strike zone it is a strike by definition. Thanks. |
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It is not a good view of one strike zone
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I don't see a ball. If the ball were included; would it be inside, on or outside of the thin rectanglular outline? That would be more definitive. See a strike zone by definition would include a ball. Have any pictures of a baseball {circles} outlining a strike zone? A bigger 3 inch wide rectangle, drawn proportional to the 17 inch plate would be more appropriate for an actual strike zone area. It would provide more meaning for a baseball passing along the edges of a real strike zone. The umpire's strike zone would definitely include baseballs around the zone area. I have a $3 strike zone to work with here. You would think, as hard as umpires work to improve the game, any graphical animation artist could provide a mediocre strike zone. This one SUXS! I have students that could do better than that with internet baseball player clip art and MSPaint. Some know how to work with actual Photoshop graphics and MSPaint over real MLB web photos. Powerful info. Some folks don't want to grasp any ideas. Its easier to make snide remarks for the general public. Fundamentals of baseball include reading, and the ability to comprehend. My apologies for making unclear statements. I have been told this many times and I continue making apologies. Thats all I got. |
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I called letter high pitches as strikes from the 1st inning to the 7th inning. In the bottom of the 1st, the Home Coach started complaining and I stepped back from the plate with my hand up and said in his direction, "By the book, Coach! Just as you asked for in the parking lot!". Not another word was spoken and amazingly enough, the batters were actually swinging at them and hitting them! The opposing blasted 3 homers on letter high pitches! |
This is the best I can do in 20 minutes:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...kezone-2-1.jpg SEE THE BALLS? |
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My point was that a pitch two balls in the inside part of the plate should not be called a strike, IMO.
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What is this hitter-not-part-of-the-strike-zone b.s.?
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Maybe I should medicate. |
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http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...kezone-2-1.jpg |
And just think--it's only January. :D;)
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Can someone please find a way to tell him that the picture was for TBall, who requested a picture of the whole zone to show others?
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My opinions on calling balls and strikes:
-Width: Do not make it wider than 1 ball more than the plate including the black. So either call a ball off the plate on the inside corner, or a ball off the plate on the outside corner, but not both. Hitters should be able to adjust their foot placement if you are being a bit generous on one side of the plate, but it's a bit much to expect them to cover a liberal inside AND outside corner. -For the outside corner, let the catcher's body language dictate whether or not it was a strike. If he goes lunging, spinning, or completely misses it, call it a ball unless the ball was clearly over the white part of the plate. -On pitches which cross right at the midpoint of the knees, do not call it a strike if the catcher pulls the pitch up or catches it basket-style. If the pitch is clearly high enough to be a strike but he butchers the framing part, call it a strike anyway. -Don't call a strike on a pitch that is almost too high if the catcher stands up to catch it or stabs upwards with his glove. Basically, call the obvious strikes, and for those that are not obvious, let the catcher's body language determine what you call it. The occasional comment such as "please do a better job of framing that pitch" will help develop rapport and allow the pitcher to get more strikes. Above all else, do not call a pitch that is out of your strikezone a strike because the catcher did a great job of framing it. The batter has no control over how it is caught. Those are my thoughts on working with the catcher to call a consistent, "good" strike zone. |
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Thanks for the pictures for the young guys. Now, would most people on this forum believe it is OK to expand the the inside and outside pitch to include the black part of the plate? I believe that would expand the zone in the pictures 1 inch on both sides. In other words, if "any" part of the ball hits "any" part of the "black" on either side, it would be called a strike. Although, by definition this is incorrect, would this come under the category of having too wide (liberal) a strike zone, and would it be acceptable to call this pitch a strike at all levels of play, including MLB with or without questec?
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Give the same amount in-and-out, imo. the exact amount depends on the level and the expectations of the league. |
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I know it has changed here and at the NCAA level -- call more "high" strikes |
Agreed
Bob:
Here in Oregon the two key members of our state training crew both work PAC-10 and WCC schedules. They are told to call the "high" strike. The "olden days" of calling anything a "ball" that is more than one ball above the belt are gone. The two college evaluators I talk with have been told to be sure that all umpires call the "higher" strike zone as determined by the NCAA. The "higher" strike is now defined as a pitch that is slightly below the lettering on the uniform top or basically at the bottom of the sternum. Regards, |
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I call the high strike. Now, I'm just a little D3 umpire, but the 3 conferences I work in I just tell the coaches who chirp (and there isn't much chirping on high fastballs) "the NCAA wants it that way." Once I started working to get it up there in college games, I took it right to the HS field. What I noticed was that nobody said anything as long as it was there the whole game. Where I see more kvetching is when an umpire is very, very tight. Of course I live in Wisconsin, and the HS ball here pales to anything I used to see in the south, but even there I heard more complaining from coaches when partners were small on the zone. (And I'm a former college umpire now as I decided that 10 hours away for 2 9-inning games for $185 with no travel money on 2-4 hour drives on Saturdays and Sundays wasn't worth putting up with the Earl Weaver wannabes I'd have to eject at least once every other week.) |
A little sophomoric humor.....
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That's what she said. |
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I will be at Atlanta NCAA Clinic in a week and a half
I am curious to see if they will cover or address the strike zone we call at the clinic. I might bring it up in one of the breakout sessions if not mentioned by any of the presenters.
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The black of the plate is the gray area. Quote:
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I know that at the DI and DII levels, it was the coaches that wanted the high strike called. Works for me.
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I can't wait until I open it up this year. ... "That guy doesn't need any help, Blue."
The best one I ever heard was a criticism of my wide-zone partner: "He's calling everything from the goatees to the knees today." |
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It appears that all but a few subscribe to the theory that too tight a zone is not as desirable as a zone that is a bit more liberal without going too far.
Too far also appears to depend on your geographical location and level of play. Sounds resonable to me. |
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My favorite strike to call is the one on the inside corner they jump back from. |
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I think after reading a lot of your post in the last few days.... I have no frickin idea what your are saying nor have i ever... most of the time you make no sense at all. |
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And yes, I have heard that adage but from MLB umpires, not amateur umpires. |
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Look, SAUmp -- I'm trying to help. Seriously. But, most of your posts are not understandable most of the time. (And, to be fair, neither is that previous sentence.) Maybe you're trying to be cute or humorous. It isn't working. If you have a question, post it in a straighforward manner (e.g., perhaps your latest could have been worded, "Do you expand your zone when a runner is stealing?"). |
~Sigh~
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Umpmazza, Finnerty and you have tried to do something that I gave up on long ago. SAUmp simply does not make sense when he posts. You can try to explain it by asking if he is trying to be funny I simply have come to the conclusion that his elevator stops somewhere short of the penthouse. Regards, |
Wow, I'm taking a lot a heat for preaching a liberal strike zone. My message has been consistent in this thread and if it is consistently wrong then so be it. I can accept it. I realized the thread turned into a discusion over the real strike zone and not the gray area nearby. I have no qualms about anyone else's strike zone. But I now know that any explanation or account I offer will never meet the raised expectations of half the viewing gallery, whether I call it a ball or strike.
I first stole pitches in post #3 of this thread. I said it is hard to steal a pitch from the top and bottom of the zone. I said it is much easier to take them inside and outside. I did not post again until page 4-5. I took exception to Kevin's assertion about an umpire being fair to both sides. I wrote several theme-related "episodes" about this undesirable position and posted the true strike zone, (3) + 3 + 17 + 3 + (3), seen here in black. I stated it is preferable to everyone involved to be fair to the pitchers because the batter's task at the plate is much easier to accomplish, whether one may consider this to be fair or foul {T/F?} assessment. I began my reply w/ a MLB hitter's size and how much harder it is to pitch around him. Kevin stated a ball scraping the plate is a strike. I agreed those were textbook strikes and the goal of every good pitcher from LL to MLB. If touching the plate is fine, then scraping the plate is much better. I included 3 inches in red as "gray" area where I would judge the pitchers effectiveness at missing his true target which is a catcher's mitt located on the edge of the plate. I realize no pitch is perfect because the batter can still destroy it all with a good swing. |
Wow, a lucid post! I'm duly impressed.
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"Nobody ever complains with an umpire who calls strikes...just the ones who say "ball" all the time..." |
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Intuitive
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16 ejections were incorrectly called strikes and 4 ejections were incorrectly called balls. 12 ejections were correctly called out and 6 ejections were correctly called safe. 4 ejections were incorrectly called out and 1 ejection was incorrectly called safe. Data suggests that the offense is more than twice as likely to dispute a call without regard for right or wrong. This may suggest that an umpire is more than likely to err on the side of the defense which has less opportunity to gripe under original customs and traditions of the game. The defense is usually smart enough to let sleeping dogs lie. IOW, with the unflattering remarks coming from the bench area, the offense may also harvest what it has sown. Gray area strikes: Read someone's comment about the data on perceived balls and strikes. Yahoo! Image Detail for www.baseball.bornbybits.com/blog/uploaded_images/braun_strike-713066.gif Rulebook strikes versus measured strikes data: The eye of the umpire -- The Hardball Times What does combining all available sets of data suggest? The difficulty is making a few tough borderline decisions {having zero sum effect over time} at critical points in the game. ;) Some humor is needed here and meant to loosen everyone up. :D Yahoo! Image Detail for static.flickr.com/1109/559009729_aa9263456c.jpg ;) If anyone should hit or miss a gray area strike, it should be a little swinging Alberto Pujols. :D |
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