Hijacked from Basketball Board... with a baseball twist
 

Perhaps I'm fighting a losing battle here, and hopefully it is because I can't convey what I mean.

Here is the baseball sitch. Let's say you got a rain delay, teams head across the field back to the building. You get to your dressing room as well, only to hear the home coach through the paper thin walls railing his team with profanity, some of which is directed at you and pard.

I would advocate for ignoring it and nailing him the first chance he gives you after the delay. If we don't get back out there, I'm calling assignor and letting him know what happened for the continuation, so he can talk to the new crew if he wishes.

Some would advocate ejecting him from the game as soon as he steps foot back onto the field, directly for his actions in the locker room. I don't like it, myself. Seems like a battle an official can't win.

Thoughts?

I played and I coached and I scouted and I was in a few clubhouses in other capacities.

What goes on in the locker room stays there. Period. And that goes for the fruits of eavesdropping. To act on it is beyond unprofessional. To beware of the guy and to warn others is normal and almost expected behavior, but you publicly kill anything and everything you overheard as far as any public response.

This isn't going to matter in terms of my immediate action, but what level?

My thought as well. For FED we have an additional option short of ejecting.

This sounds like the coach who yells about the umpires in the dugout and then claims the umpire has rabbit ears when he acts on it. It isn't rabbit ears when he's essentially yelling at you.

Let's take it a step further. The coach knows the walls are paper thin and spends 15 minutes profanely ranting about the officials, calling them cheaters, telling the kids that the umpires are stealing their chance to win, etc.

In a high school environment, is there a line here that can get crossed and get the umpires involved?

I do not agree especially in a HS environment

If you are the parent of one of those kids on the team wouldn't you want to know what kind of 'stuff" is being taugt.

HS coaches for the most part are also teachers and should be teaching the kis about life THROUGH sports.

Also, suppose you hear the coach say this to one of his players.

Jimmy the umpires are letting Tommy (the other teams F2) get away with "murder " on plays at the plate.

The next time you are on base I want you to "take out" Tommy

There is no place in HS sports for this kind of nonsense.

It's one thing if the coach is giving strategies etc. and says "Hey guys let's try the "skunk in the outfield play" or something along those lines then I perfectly agree "what is said in the locker room stays there" with regard to strategies of the game BUT

when a coach is telling his players that the officials are cheating or instructing one of his players to possibly cause harm to another player is IMO crossing the line and should be reported.

Pete Booth

What goes on in the locker room is none of our business! If you want to inform your assignor and/or "red line" this school, fine. But you have no business saying anything to anyone else about this. There is no "rule" for this, it is just common courtesy - just like when you are with your buddies, you yap and curse about a coach.

I would tend to make a note of it mentally, and put it in my "tool box" so to speak. If "Tommy" did get taken out, by chance, player and coach are gone and what I heard will probably be in my report. I have talked about coaches and some players myself between myself and other umps. Should I do it? Probably not, but it does happen. Lockeroom rants stay there, but I will have my mental notebook available for the rest of that game. If I feel that someone's safety is in jeapordy, I will pull coach aside, prior to resuming, and let him know about the conversation I happened to have heard while in the lockeroom. There are more times than we care to admit that teams are told we are the reason for their failure. Heck, I cost at teams at least half their games I officiate it seems. Who hasn't had the discussion with your partner about how coach A is a real pr*ck and will be on a real short leash today? I have had partners actually tell me "I think I'm going to dump someone today" prior to the game. If it happens and I think my partner did it to satisfy his whim, then I will take postgame actions myself.

Giddie up Tangent.

Bottom line, what is said in the lockeroom tends to stay in the lockeroom, until it affects my ability to provide the service I am hired for.

Absolutely not. It is inside the locker room. It stays there. Be a pro.

Okay? The man's right. And when he's right, he's usually very, very right.

The game is the game, irrespective of everything, including the level of play. If it's going on in public, you are responsible for it. In private, store it away if you want, but it stays there. Period.

I may not eject the guy from the game, but I would not hesitate to send a sportsmanship report to the state office. As a parent, I would not want my daughter subjected to that kind of behavior and/or language. For me to sit idly by while minor children are subjected to that would not sit well with me.

BTW, I'm not a pro, just a little, old HS umpire.

Of all the things you've said, this one is the most wrong. A Little League game is not a college game and a LL coach yelling at/around 10 year olds like this would be much different than a college coach.

If its HS and below... coach is gone and paperwork is filed to both the state and the AD.. IMHO its your/ours (as an official) OBLIGATION to make sure this happens.
Especially if its HS, the coach is a TEACHER acting in a coaching capacity (most times, unless they are CECP) and using profanity is inexcusable no matter where they are in my jurisdiction. (sight and sound) and on school board property.
But, y'all keep ignoring it (those of you that do)... the world seems to be a better place for it.
Don't get me wrong I can f*cking cuss with the best of them, when im kicking back with the adults.... drinking an adult beverage and discussing the days game.
But, when i'm on/near/around the field, I dress professionally, I act professionally and I talk/communicate professionally.

Okay, the game is not the game in Little League. You changed the subject in order to tell me I'm wrong. Nice twist. No need to strain yourself like that just to start an argument.

We were obviously talking about high school and college, which is where the codes apply. If you want to discuss the topic and differ, fine.

Locker Room. That's the key, here. Locker Room.

I think we all agree that Little League and real baseball are two different worlds and profanity and agitation at the LL level is intolerable.

But, that's not the subject here.

I never said ignore it. I said store it and beware of the guy and warn others.

I wouldn't tolerate a single peep out of a guy like that in public, but what he says in private is none of my business, if it is said in a locker room. But if I thought I heard that he was harming a young person, he would be dealing with me before any police, parent or other official. And when the police did come, they would be providing him relief from me.

Cussing coaches are a part of sports and life. Baseball's a little more refined than football, but it's still part of it and will remain part of it. Baseball makes young men grow up sooner, like anything that requires such toughness. Hard-nosed and profane coaches are part of that toughening.

I, for one, cuss in everyday life--almost always needlessly. But I virtually never cussed as a coach (youth or adult), nor did I ever browbeat or demean a young person. I just don't have a need to. And I never cuss as an umpire. (Your last line says it all.) But, let's be real. It happens, and it is usually not really harming anyone. It shouldn't start until college or the minors, but it also exists in high school.

(The earlier Little League analogy gets sillier by the moment.)

[Kevin IMO you are missing the point

This is HS and at least from my experience HS Coaches are also TEACHERS.

Where do you draw the line?

Suppose you are working with an Afro American official, Asian official, Latin official etc. and the coach utters racial slurs about the official to his players

OR

This Coach makes a racial slur directly to one of his players.

I could go on and on

In General yes What's said in the locker-room stays in the locker-room but there is a limit

If it's "normal type cussing" no Problem

What's normal type cussing

"Hey Joe can you get the lead out of your a** when running to first base" or something along those lines.


Pete Booth

Imo
 

First, HS and below, and to a certain extent college baseball is not the same game as Pro Ball. There are safety and sportsmanship rules used at those levels that do not apply to the pro game. In the pro game there are certain situations where we let the players settle things, and ways that we communicate that are not available to umpires in non pro games. That being said, trying to take action on information you heard while not in the same room might be difficult to rally support for. As for the comments about the Umpiring crew, keep that in mind and remember that when dealing with this rat. The language part is for the players/school admin/parents to handle. And here is why: If the players don't go to there parents or AD, more than likely they will keep quiet or deny it when questioned. On the field behavior is part of your jurisdiction.

Pete, this is obviously a complex issue, because I am normally one of the small percentage who speak up and/or stand up to anyone who I see victimizing a person or animal. I don't care what or who they are, they get a lesson.

But as an umpire, I can't penalize a guy and his players because I know he's a slimeball. I am going to possibly umpire a game or two this year for a school that has hired a coach that I have known for 12 years, and know for certain that he is a vile, wife-beating, child-beating, home-wrecking, player-assaulting coward a------. But I am going to walk out onto the field, and give his and his opponents' players and followers a safe, fair, respectful game like I always strive to give, irrespective of how tainted some coach is.

Now, in his particular case, when he turned up at that school, several of us notified the school's officials of the unique background of the guy they're hiring. But he's a the friend of a major league playing millionaire kid and his dad who rebuilt the school's ballpark, so that connection makes everything irrelevant to the school.

The greatest sin that is committed on the baseball playing young people of this nation is the way they go about picking coaches. Some of the coaches I have seen should be nowhere near the game, and others, like the guy I just described, should be nowhere near our young people. (In his case, he shouldn't even be around his own kids.) But you know what, Pete? The vast majority of young men actually rise above and tune out the B.S. from the worst of the worst that are screaming in their ear. I know it sounds harsh, but it's really true.

And this whole thing has to change. I have done and continue to do more than my part to change it where I live, because I love the game and I want it to go right for as many people as I can reach, but until real baseball men are coaching in the majority of our schools and leagues, this improper conduct and the mediocre baseball that results from it is bound to continue. It's sad, and MLB's half-hearted recognition of it is sinful.

i expereinced something like this a few years back working indy ball. after the game the manager went on a tirade in his locker room about my partner. we shared a wall with them that was unfinished at the top. found out from one of the players the next day that he had pulled a chair over so he could get as close to the gap at the top of the wall as possible to yell into our room. sweeeeeeet.

Many of us would argue that high school baseball and real baseball are two different worlds also. Profanity at the high school level is certainly not tolerated here, under any circumstance. When I was a probationary umpire back in the 80s, I told a high school coach who was arguing a call at second base that something or other was "bull****, and you know it." I got my as$ in a wringer over it and was warned by the board of directors for "swearing."

The point is that the high school coach is there to set an example for the young men he coaches to follow. Any ranting and raving with profanity involved needs to be reported. That coach knew exactly what he was doing, and that the umpires could hear every word. It is not eavesdropping when you are within earshot of an easily audible conversation.

So you would eject a coach before the act actually occured ? J agree there's no place for that type of coaching behavior in high school sports, but I don't believe I could eject the coach for something I overheard, especially since it was not on the field.

I find it impossible to believe that a school would hire such a guy as you describe, further impossible to believe that parents would allow their children to play for him and lastly, impossible to believe an umpire who knows all of this to be true and would ignore and umpire a game for this school.

this guy would get his a** whipped around here for showing his face, much less coaching.

I don't know where you live, but in Southern California, there are guys like him at several schools, and there is politics just as blatant as this at more than one school, and guys who are even more wildly abusive at many schools. There's a local JV guy who is the worst verbal abuser I have ever heard, and he's been at the same post for 20 years.

As for the coward I referred to: The guy whose place he took got implicated in drinking and weed smoking with some players. This is a major high school with several thousand students. If you can't believe it, then you should feel lucky to be free of it or free from the thought of it. I know the guy I spoke of in the community and even coached the son he once abused. His acts were fairly common knowledge. He abused his two sons right out of the game and then went to the local high school and sucked up to its most wealthy alumnus and that was it. Sorry you can't see it.

At another school, a former major leaguer rebuilt the school himself at $1 million-plus, and took over the program solely based on that. They just handed it to him with zero experience, no college education, and no real coaching or communications skills. He was a very good player, but didn't know three things about coaching. He was horrible, but solely based on his rebuilding the park, he was handed the program at a major high school in a very affluent area.

the real world around here. It's disgraceful, but not impossible.

So you wouldn't accept the assignment? Maybe I won't either. Maybe I won't get it, but it's almost a sure thing that I will. If I do, I will make sure that his players get the game they deserve, and not the one their coward coach deserves.

This is what I heard a coach scream at a kid while he got lit up: "You deserve to get knocked around like that! And I'm gonna' leave you out there to die!"

His father objected loudly to that kind of treatment. The coach said, "Get lost and take your pu$$y son with you!"

Only then did the UIC put him in the dugout and muzzle him. I begged God for him to open his mouth, so I could toss him, and he did and I did.

I went through all the channels you described, rather than meet him at his car and ask him what he has to say to me, like an uncivilized amateur might. That guy is still screaming at kids like that four years later as he will four years from now.

"You're killing this team!" ... "Can't you field a ground ball? Your sister can!" ... "You guys deserve to get killed. You stink!"

Those are some of his classics. JV coach at the school where we have our association meetings.

well regarding the "crazy-a$$ed coaches you guys mention in the previous posts.... let me know where and when. I will gladly do his games. of course the mileage might be a little costly. :)

I do believe/I know they have coaches/dads/fans, who do and say the things mentioned. handle them accordingly, IMHO i use this rule.... if they say/do something that shocks me, I must act accordingly.... if they say/do something that doesn't shock me, I also must act accordingly.... its a judgment thing.

Happy New Years Y'all.. peace :D

Imo
 

KF, one question. With this H/C's reputation and his on field behavior, how does he continue to be approved by the league/school? More puzzling to me is that parents would allow their kids to play on his team. I would think there would be a revolt by the parents who witness this treatment of their kids. I would offer this bit of advice to you on the subject of officiating games where you have a personal relationship with any of the participants. Perception becomes Reality.

And what did you do the next day (assuming the teams were still in town...)?

His on-field behavior is subtle (the screamer is another area guy). He's a mentally cruel guy who's a womanizer and in the past assaulted his sons in public and also shoved a couple of other kids in separate incidents in PONY. A few people spoke up when he showed up at this school and they did nothing but kill it. He managed to get through a couple seasons as an assistant at a junior college before that, but, and I'll say this again, a player rebuilt the field and he and his dad wanted the guy as the coach, so he's the coach. I don't know why so many people think that politics don't play a part in who coaches some of these teams.

And generally (and I have seen every perspective, including parent), most parents do one of two things: They shut up and take it; or they pull their kid and go to another school.

I'm just trying to make a statement that baseball coaching in America at the high school level is deplorable and there are some glaring cases where people are all but forced to take it or don't play. Baseball dreams are shattered every day by some of these true rats.

And what part do you disagree with Steve?

Okay, fine.

I really do what I do for the right reasons. I respect the game more than you can imagine. I don't know why you are painting me otherwise.

I am also a realist, so I guess that makes me hard for some to relate to.

I think I pretty much outlined my position in my post, but for one thing, I disagree with the notion that hearing intentionally directed profanity through a known flimsy, thin-walled building, which is intended to piss off the umpire, is eavesdropping. This behavior should not be tolerated on the high school level. The kids are just that. Kids. So what they hear that language all the time. They shouldn't hear it from their adult supervisors. If you ignore the behavior, you only encourage it. The coach who pulled this asinine stunt should be at the very least reprimanded and warned to knock it off.

I neither ignore nor encourage such ill behavior. It's just that as the scenario was originally framed, what goes on inside gets stored and used at the first opportunity. I've done that. Or reported through all the right channels. I've done that. Or info was given to all others who are going to work the guy's games. I've done that. I've done whatever each situation called for according to my vastly experienced point of view. I can't eradicate bad coaching or abuse of young players. And I am not soft on it. I'll stand up to anyone over anything.

There's just a sanctity of the locker room issue that muddies this terribly.

[QUOTE]My counter argument

Forget about the locker room meaning you are on the field.

There is play at the plate where-by you call a runner out.

The OM thinks that you blew an OBS call.

As his runner is coming back to the dug-out you hear

"Timmy, since they are not going to call OBS next time take out F2"

Now the act of taking out F2 has not yet occured so you are telling me that we at this point should do nothing?

I see no difference between the 2 situations.

The coach KNOWS that the walls are thin so if he does not want the umpires to hear the conversation there is a way he can do it, however, once we have information IMO we can not just "let it go" at least in the HS and below levels.

PRO ball is altogether different and the point is most likely moot because I do not think the umpire lounge is near the players.

There are many things that we as umpires do before the "act is actually performed"

Pete Booth

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;563099]Yes.

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;563099]There's a whole range of actions between (and beyond) "do nothing" and "immediately eject."

~Sigh~
 

Correct, we should do nothing. We should place the information in our data bank and watch what happens.

What you hear and see in a locker room stays there. Under the OP without the coach speaking directly to me nothing has happened. Again it simply goes in my data bank for use in the future if appropriate.

At the high school level and above (which is all I can speak of) it is not my job or interest to play policeman over coaches. I do not care what coaches say to their assistant coaches, players or even fans. I have never, nor would I ever, comment to a coach about his language or actions to his shaving aged players.

Regards,

IAWTP. The high school diamond is an extension of the classroom. I'd love to see a math teacher use language like this in the classroom and not get fired.

[QUOTE]Tee as always I respect and value your opinion but one question

Suppose the coach was berating your son or instructing your son to perform a malicious act upon another player.

I realize for the most part you would not be officiating your sons game but the point is it could be a player who is close to you

Would your tune change?

Best Wishes to you and your family during this Holiday weekend.

Pete Booth

~Sigh~
 

How I would react to something if I were a parent is far different than as a paid official.

This year I will be working two separate players that are sons of people I work with . . . that being said I would never consider placing my values on any coach/player relationship. It would be, in my opinion, pretentious and an unreasonable intervention in a relationship that is, by definition, none of my "freakin'" business.

Let me give you another apple to apple example:

Let's say the head coach of the Milleville High School "Flying Mint Farmers" walks down to the end of the dugout, slips behind the end wall and lights up a big Cubana.

I would call time and go to him and say: "Skip ya need to get rid of that and get back into the dugout."

He has two choices:

1) Do what I said and stay in the game or,

2) Be ejected for not following my clearly defined order.

I would not involve myself unless it was clearly defined that I had the responsibility, by rule, to do something.

Without trying to morph this thread farther: Profanity from coach to player can be handled. But something as simple as the OP or a coach telling a player something such as "steam roll the catcher" is far from my duty to handle DURING the game.

Respectfully,

My post did not mean to suggest commenting directly to the coach about his abusive language, it was meant to convey that I would report his actions to his superiors and the governing board of the local federation. I'm not going to tolerate a coach badmouthing the officials with the express intention of making sure the officials can hear what he says. That is baiting the umpires, and instead of taking the bait and respond directly, I suggest reporting the obnoxious behavior to the proper authorities.

Also, many high school players still have not reached shaving age, so I don't consider them "shaving aged." They are still impressionable youths (or "youtes"), and adults should be setting a good example. Swearing is not appropriate behavior in society, regardless of your belief system.

I have several stab wounds in my back, but never as much as a hangnail from delivering one. And I have had some pretty objectionable partners. The never-throw-the-partner-under-no-matter-what approach will get you universal respect in the long run.

Last summer, college wood bat league--

Pickoff at second, R2 slides into F4's foot which was in front of the bag (not blocking the entire bag, probably about 1/4 of the bag). F4 tags runner, I call runner out. O head coach want OBS, I say no, the runner had a clear path to the bag, back and forth we go. As he walks away, he says to me, "I am going to tell them to come in spikes high next time."

I did not reply. I did not eject him there, but it did go in the memory bank. If someone had come in maliciously later in the game, I would have ejected the player, then the HC.

All we can do is call the things we see.

How would you justify EJ'ing the HC? ... coz you know he's gonna say he NEVER told that player to MC the defense.... shoulda got him when he said it... IMHO

At least at the high school level (and lower level college), there is not much equivalent to what happens in basketball or football for that matter. There are no locker rooms to separate teams and officials.

I would say similarly to what I said on the basketball board. If the comments were said after the game, there is a way to handle that at the high school level. You can write up the coach and make others known about the behavior of such an adult (coach). If I have not yet left the field you can eject a coach until you leave the field. And if a coach wants to follow you after the game or comment after the game, then you still can write up a coach.

I had a coach one time follow me off the field in a college game, I wrote the coach up and moved on.

Peace

I had a similar situation a couple of years ago I was the BU in a FED game between two rival HS's We were watching everything that day because we were warned by our assigner that there may be problems. HC for school "A" stated that he was going to have his people come in "with their nails up". I simply said, "You do what you feel you have to, John, but mark my words, if I eject one of your players for having their nails up, you are going with them, understood?". Happily, no one from school "A" ever came close to having their spikes in the air.

If a coach makes a threat to do something against the rules, you have to tell him right then and there that he is going to suffer the same fate as his player. You must also make sure that if you have to make that ejection, you follow it up with a report stating that you warned the coach after he made the statement.

I would write my report and include everything that happened. I don't really care what the HC says.

How are you going to justify a prophylactic ejection?

You have fun in court when you had advance notice of an intent to injure and did nothing to stop it.

Not an attorney, I see.

Actually, have a fairly decent law background.

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;563099]My answer to your counter-argument : As soon as one of this coach's player DOES take out an opponent, he is ejected for MC, of course, and then I get the coach for the provocation. For all I know, he might cool down, and tell the player, in the dugout, "Forget that; don't try to take him out".

If a coach came to you and said "Pete, we're gonna play without a right fielder today", are you going to eject him immediately, or after his team takes the field defensively, and he refuses to put a player into position ? I would have to guess you're dumping him right then, but I could be wrong.

Chuck

Know it is a long thread but just got this far...
 

sorry if I'm repeating someone elses comments.

Ozzy, you're full of it if you think this is true. Do you honestly think that if the coach overheard you through paper thin walls making despariging comments about him and his team that he wouldn't make his first phone call to your assignor? What happens in the locker room stays in the locker room till everyone leaves the locker room. Then it is fair game. I might not penalize the coach, but I sure as hell am going to let him know I'm not a fool and I know what is going on. In the case of him telling a player to take out another player, as soon as we get back to the field, I'm letting him know that if any of his players take anyone out the rest of this game not only will that player be ejected, but he can go warm the bus up.

With all due respect, baseball has been around a long time, and so has the locker room code. What is said there--however brazenly or childishly--stays there ... period. To act on it publicly is a breach ... period. It's how baseball works ... period. It's how it must work.

Your words: "What happens in the locker room stays in the locker room till everyone leaves the locker room. Then it is fair game." The previous quote, in particular, shows a pronounced level of baseball naiveté on your part. Not Ozzy nor I wrote the code, we're just quoting from it. You should learn it.

How to handle the threat of malicious contact is a separate issue that you combined with the fruits of locker room issue.

Hehehehe,
 

Then quite a few of us are full of it. As Ozzy and Kevin have stated what happens in a locker room (remember the OP does NOT have a face-to-face confrontation) stays in the locker room.

I would be shocked if any one of my partners reacted in anyway to something that is overheard.

Sorry we just see things differently.

Regards

Well, my friend, if you pulled something like this on my crew, you would not be on the crew any longer. And before you start to become sanctimonious, I know a lot of FED and NCAA Basketball officials that would have you tossed off their crew, also. What you hear off the court or the field is not to be taken to the court or field. I agree that if you hear a coach telling his players to do something against safety rules, you should make note of it, mentally! You should be on the lookout during the game and if such an infraction occurs, you should take immediate and appropriate action. But to openly say something to a coach about something he said in the locker room (his locker room) is just wrong, period!

First, being more professional that most Rats, I wouldn't make those comments.

But second, are you suggesting that because a Rat acts like a rat, I'm expected to do likewise? Sorry. I hold myself to a higher standard.

I'm refering only to...
 

the coach suggesting a player should retaliate. What he says about me or my crew, wether I hear it or not, is of no concern to me. In fact it would probably give me a good laugh. I also would not talk badly about a team in a manner that a coach would talk badly of us officials. I may make a comment to my partner(s) but it wouldn't be inappropriate. sorry for the confusion, but it actually sounds like we are on the same page.

10.4.1 SITUATION B: At halftime, as the teams, coaches, and officials are making their way through a hallway to the dressing room, a Team A member verbally abuses one of the officials. RULING: A technical foul is charged to the team member and is also charged indirectly to the head coach. During intermission all team members are bench personnel and are penalized accordingly. If the conduct is flagrant, the team member shall be disqualified.

This situation adresses conduct directed directly at an official, in person, by a player. This is different from the OP which dicusses a conversation that is overheard.

Not the same animal.

You mean that the thing in Alaska where officials were penalized cause they were overheard talking about a team and coaches didn't happen? I mean, what happens in the locker room stays in the locker room, after all.

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...aped-refs.html

Now you watch your tongue, there padna!:p

There were several avenues I could have gone with that, but I chose to be the bigger man and pass.

....speaking of a bigger man, congrats on the weight loss, keep up the good work.

Drink few or none of your calories and you've won half the battle.

This is my weight control tool (instead of Sprite):
http://www.elcuzcorestaurant.com/onl...Pellegrino.jpg

Again, just because Rats behave that way doesn't mean officials should.

I just drink lots of water, Crystal Light, and seltzer w/o sodium. Zero calories. Also eat Nutrisystem meals with lots of veggies and low-glycemic carbs, just as the program specifies.

Thanks for all the encouragement and support to those who PM'd me and have commented! I'm trying very hard.

Listen to the Veterans
 

With all due respect to the officials who are relatively new and inexperienced:You are entitled to your opinion. However, by ripping some of the posts of Umpires who have more experience and knowledge of game mgt than some of you does not earn you respect. Ozzy and some others here have forgotten more about the game than some of you will ever grasp. Voice your thoughts, but realize that many of us here are speaking from experience and work this game several levels above your game.

Is this a compliment to Ozzy? :p Way to forget Ozzy, way to forget ;)

I tossed a Coach one time for his dugout remark that the pard' had Alzheimer's. I think, I don't really remember.

?
 

Have you ever heard the saying, " He has forgotten more about baseball than you will ever know" It is a compliment

Stay at it, man. Slow and steady.

Best advice I ever heard: "Eat half as much and chew it twice as long."

I am very confused by this post. To which officials are you referring? I've read through the posts, and it seems that very experienced officials are disagreeing on this issue. It seems pretty well divided, and I haven't seen any "new" or "inexperienced" umpires responding. Everybody's post I've read have been from very seasoned umpires, who just happen to disagree with one another. Who posted that is "several levels" below Ozzy and others?

I am sorry this is a little late to comment on this. But there is not such thing as a "Crew" that you could throw someone off of. That just does not take place in basketball. We work with too many different people. I do get the point. :D

Peace

Experience
 

SS, I was directing my post to some of the officials without very much experience handling situations, and those who haven't work above HS Level

In some parts of the LA area, some high school environments can be as challenging as most D-III or JC or similar small college settings. Ever heard of nationally-ranked Chatsworth? The left side of their infield got drafted in the first dozen picks two years ago. You do one of their games, with local TV and the LA Times and Daily News and about 500-plus people, and it can get just as challenging as a couple of higher levels. And they're not the only ones.

KF, I am not taking shots at anyone here. But I know about being on TV and working in front of big crowds. I do it every night from May till Sept.

I'm just saying that you did place high school in a category that made it sound free of any real challenges. I did a H.S. game at Jered and Jeff Weaver's school, and they had another pro prospect throwing 94 mph when I was there. There was another private school in the valley that had three D-I pitchers who were already signed as juniors. One 91-mph-throwing left-hander went to Florida State; another lefty, who throws 93, went to Loyola Marymount, and the third one, a right-hander who went 20-0 with a 1.00 ERA as a varsity starter, went to NY Stonybrook. All three may be in the big leagues someday, according to not just me, but the several scouts that followed them. Their games got pretty challenging, too.

High school is not necessarily high school in several parts of the country.

I understand about those kind of games. Again, I was not being condesending , I just was pointing out that as you gain experience and move up to higher levels, that your Game Mgt is crucial.

I agree. I probably emphasize that more strongly than many of my peers, and I get good responses from baseball people to my overall game because of it. Sometimes a well-managed pregame and first two innings can make the rest of the game a relative walk in the park.

Exactly the point I've tried to make here for a long time: We see lots of pro prospects and they are the ones that actually make it to the bigs. We umpire in front of really big crowds, with many scouts in attendance, and some of the games are televised. They most certainly are featured on the news at night. I've been on TV plenty of times. And I've worked big crowds at Qualcomm Stadium before. I don't care how big or small a crowd is, or how important a player or a game is, I relish the pressure situations, yet have never worked a D-1 game in my life. There is plenty of drama here in SoCal at the high school level. Baseball here is like football is to Texas.

Very, very well said and very true.

And we never compared it to D-I, because we know we can't.

It's just high-level high school with games that are peppered with high draft picks and major D-I signees.

Yup.:cool:

Here are two pitchers from the team that won the National Tournament at Cal State Fullerton. I see them both as serious big league prospects. The first guy is an Orel Hershiser clone. His name is Tyler Johnson and he went 20-0 as a varsity starter in one of the most competitive leagues in the country. He's in his first year at D-I NY Stonybrook. The lefty, Ryan Hawthorne, throws 92-94 mph on corners, and has a 68 mph change, a 72 mph bender and a 82 mph bender, with command of all of them. He's sick. He's a freshman at D-I Loyola.
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...rkguy/TJ-2.jpghttp://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...guy/Ryno-1.jpg

There are many whole states without two pitchers this good and these two guys were on the same team. And they carved up the Nos. 1, 2 and 7 teams in the country in that tournament.

There are indeed high school games that present the same challenges as any you'll find. The best 18-year-olds in California can play with anybody.

Kevin

I believe as the historian you would know that several high school age players that went right to the big leagues. So, it is very possible there are still excellent high school players and competition in certain areas of the country. This kid with both the 72 mph deuce and a 82 mph hook sounds impressive.

Now back to topic. Would the good respected umpires who are known to have a "tight" but consistent strike zone, be the ones who make the ball hit the some part of the white, and the good respected umps who are know to have a more "liberal" zone be the ones who make the ball hit some part of the black? I would assume the ones who start going farther out start getting the reputation of being too liberal even if they are consistent.

HS Games
 

I seems to me that comparing HS players and games to college or pro baseball is getting a little carried away. Many here have worked games in the HS arena where highly touted prospects have played in. But it is still a HS game. With HS players and coaches. It is not College or professional baseball.

Oops

Sorry for the 2nd paragraph in #81 above. It should go on the other post. "That's a balk" on my part.

Where did you get that?

Wow, that's quite a reach.

?
 

Where did I get what? After I read the scouting report accompanied by the pictures, we needed a little dose of reality.Don't fall in love with the players

I think he's just showing us some of the talent that plays in California. That there are many different levels of high school ball is reality.

Oh, okay ... I'll be sure to watch myself. And I'll tell all the Southern California pro and college scouts that followed them around to control themselves too. And I'll try not to make any other comparisons to elite umpires like yourself that make me seem naive. Maybe when I grow up more, I won't be so impressionable.

Relax
 

My point was that many on this board understand about prospects and scouts. There is no need to get belligerent and run at me. My advice is to not get caught up in all of that. I.m not elite. Relax

I don't know if words like "relax" or "belligerent" or terms like "running at me" apply to anything that I present.

My point is exactly what Seth said: there is high school ball in this region and a couple of others that is of a level that most don't experience or relate to and perhaps shouldn't be painted over with such a broad stroke like it is quite often around here, and like you seemingly were doing. I made that point by emphasizing that a single team had a pair of pitchers that are phenomenal.

No, I'll go continue to relax.

I saw none of that point in your original post.

There is a big difference from working a game with prospects and scouts, and working games with scouts who are scouting players that actually end up making it to the show (and staying for awhile). And a huge majority, for some reason or other, seem to come from the southern California area. We umpire players that become household names on a regular basis. Ho-hum, really.

But we do all sorts of leagues that feature former pro players, D-1 players in the off-season, and many wood bat leagues with college players in them, and the level of baseball is very high caliber. Hey, some of us couldn't be as fortunate as you to get jobs in the minors. That doesn't necessarily make a better umpire, having minor league experience. It sure doesn't hurt, but there are plenty of very good and excellent officials who have never worked above the levels I've just described.

Agreed
 

Steve, I was not trying to minimize the caliber of games or the Umpires who work the games abilities.What I was trying to point out, and apparently could not do, was that when these prospects play in HS games, they usually are WAY above the competition. From my past experience in Florida HS games, in these situations, they blew away the hitters, or just pummelled the ball at the plate. Its how they adjust when thrown in the mix with players of the same talent or better. I am no better a man than any other poster here.

Originally, you were asserting that when an umpire works high school or below, he would not have the skills or experience to handle difficult situations or rulings.

(And that lone phenom thing you experience in Florida is not the case here. In fact, I watched that No. 2 in the nation Jupiter, Fla. team get carved up because the team with those two pitchers I described had big hitters one through nine.)