Need Help Quick, Carl where are you?

[His High Holiness]

I am the assignor this week for high school tournaments! A situation has arisen that requires a ruling:

FED rules, district championship game:

R2, R3, 0 outs, bottom of 8th, score 3-3. Defense intentionally walks BR to load the bases.

Not knowing the rules about a dead ball, the defense sneaks the ball to F3, F1 toes the rubber, and PU says play. No one knows that F3 has the ball. R1 steps off first and is tagged out. U1 calls a balk on the pitcher for not having the ball and being on the rubber. Run scores on balk, game over, all hell breaks loose.

In OBR and NCAA, PU has put the ball in play illegally. Therefore, the out and the balk are nullified, the PU instructs the defense on proper procedure, and we would continue with bases loaded, 0 out.

Now U3 says that he has gotten a FED ruling from someone on the internet saying that in FED, the pitcher is required to have the ball when he toes the runner or it is a balk even if the ball is not in play. I doubt that this is true, but before I hang myself out to dry with a couple of AD's, can someone tell me if there is anything to this phantom ruling.

One thing that I have learned about FED ball is that anything wacky is possible when it comes to their rulings.

Thanks,

Peter

[Rog]

re: "U1 calls a balk on the pitcher for not having the ball and being on the rubber. Run scores on balk, game over, all hell breaks loose."


Per NFHS 5-1-3 balls is "dead" on the intentional walk.

Then, NFHS 5-1-4 making the ball "live".

Now, NFHS Case Book 5-1-4 Situation B:
B1 goes to first because (a) he is hit by a pitched ball,

After B1 has touched first, he steps off the base and F3 tags him by the use of the "hidden ball" trick.

Ruling: In (a), the runner is safe. The ball remains dead until held by the pitcher on his plate.

It would appear that on an intentional base on balls, that the same resulting ruling would apply!

But then, what do I know.....

Q. Was there a legal protest filed?????

Q. How experienced where the PU, U1 and the others?????

[Edited by Rog on May 24th, 2002 at 11:53 AM]

[Tim C]

Ain't the internet great.

A "real" umpire says, "someone on the internet (i.e. Chalres Manson) said it was a balk at FED level."

Hmmm, let's see. Authoritive opinion hits again EXCEPT this time it is rumored.

As I see it Rog has the correct references. It is a little like Erick when he ties two or three rules together to come to a decision but I think this is very applicable.

We ONLY need to know that for the ball to become "Live" the pitcher must have the ball and touch the pitcher's plate.

Everything else is "garden party."

I can't picture a difference between the HBP reference and an intentional walk so I think we have a "set aside of a (the) correct ruling" and a protestable situation.

Hope you and DC are OK,

[brumey1107]

Peter - Or anyone else:

As a novice umpire, can you explain why in OBR and NCAA the PU put the ball in play illegally?

Additionally, as OBR 8.05 states "..However, certain specifics should be borne in mind: (a) Straddling the pitcher's rubber without the ball is to be interpreted as intent to deceive and ruled a balk."

So in OBR games:
1) is it ok for F1 to toe the plate without the ball as long as he doesn't feints a pitch?

2) The way the hidden ball trick works is if the F1 goes directly to the plate and doesn't attempt anything?

Thank you kindly.

[Rog]

re: "As a novice umpire"
18 years; and, I am still one and, forever more.....

re: "can you explain why in OBR and NCAA the PU put the ball in play illegally?"
http://www.cbs.sportsline.com/u/base...rulesfront.htm
Official Baseball Rules 5.02
http://www.cbs.sportsline.com/u/base...ers/rules5.htm
5.02 After the umpire calls "Play" the ball is alive and in play and remains alive and in play until for legal cause, or at the umpire's call of "Time" suspending play, the ball becomes dead. While the ball is dead no player may be put out, no bases may be run and no runs may be scored, except that runners may advance one or more bases as the result of acts which occurred while the ball was alive (such as, but not limited to a balk, an overthrow, interference, or a home run or other fair ball hit out of the playing field). Should a ball come partially apart in a game, it is in play until the play is completed.


re: "Additionally, as OBR 8.05 states "..However, certain specifics should be borne in mind: (a) Straddling the pitcher's rubber without the ball is to be interpreted as intent to deceive and ruled a balk."

So in OBR games:
1) is it ok for F1 to toe the plate without the ball as long as he doesn't feints a pitch?

Not while the ball is live!!!!!

2) The way the hidden ball trick works is if the F1 goes directly to the plate and doesn't attempt anything?

NOT - - - F1 should walk around the mound, i.e. as if to pick up the rosin bag; or, the ball, etc.
http://www.cbs.sportsline.com/u/base...ers/rules8.htm
8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when_
(i) The pitcher, without having the ball, stands on or astride the pitcher's plate or while off the plate, he feints a pitch;


After 18 years of umpiring - just a few weeks ago as the FU in a varsity game, I called my first out on a hidden ball trick play. Hot dang - a team finally got it right; and, it worked beautifully!!!!!

You are "Welcome" Sir.....

[bluezebra]

"So in OBR games:
1) is it ok for F1 to toe the plate without the ball as long as he doesn't feints a pitch?

2) The way the hidden ball trick works is if the F1 goes directly to the plate and doesn't attempt anything?

1) No. Why would you think it's illegal to straddle the pitcher's plate, but legal to touch it?

2) No. It's a balk.

OBR 5.02 While the ball is dead no player may be put out,

OBR 5.11 5.11 After the ball is dead, play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes his place on the pitcher's plate with a new ball or the same ball in his possession and the plate umpire calls "Play." The plate umpire shall call "Play" as soon as the pitcher takes his place on his plate with the ball in his possession.

Hidden ball trick when these requisites aren't met, is a waste of time.

Bob

I have seen several times on the internet umps claim they balk a pitcher for being on the rubber without the ball but the ball is dead. It is patently untrue. In no rulebook may you balk during a dead ball.

brumey1107:

As a novice umpire, can you explain why in OBR and NCAA the PU put the ball in play illegally?

Your other two questions were answer but this one wasn't.
The PU can't legally put the ball in play unless the pitcher is on the rubber with the ball. If F3 has the ball then the PU did it incorectly. It's no big deal, just return the ball to the mound and start over again.

[brumey1107]

Michael -

Thank you for clarifying. In Rog's message one of his links was directed to '5.00 Putting the Ball in Play. Live Ball' section of the rule book. He just made me look it up and read it.

Thanks for the help to all!

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by His High Holiness

I am the assignor this week for high school tournaments! A situation has arisen that requires a ruling:

FED rules, district championship game:

R2, R3, 0 outs, bottom of 8th, score 3-3. Defense intentionally walks BR to load the bases.

Not knowing the rules about a dead ball, the defense sneaks the ball to F3, F1 toes the rubber, and PU says play. No one knows that F3 has the ball. R1 steps off first and is tagged out. U1 calls a balk on the pitcher for not having the ball and being on the rubber. Run scores on balk, game over, all hell breaks loose.

In OBR and NCAA, PU has put the ball in play illegally. Therefore, the out and the balk are nullified, the PU instructs the defense on proper procedure, and we would continue with bases loaded, 0 out.

Now U3 says that he has gotten a FED ruling from someone on the internet saying that in FED, the pitcher is required to have the ball when he toes the runner or it is a balk even if the ball is not in play. I doubt that this is true, but before I hang myself out to dry with a couple of AD's, can someone tell me if there is anything to this phantom ruling.

Peter here's the applicable FED ruling

FED rule 5-1-4

After a dead ball, the ball becomes alive when it is held by F1 in a legal pitching position , provided F1 has engaged the pitcher's plate , the batter and F2 are in their respective boxes, and the umpire calls "play" and gives the apprpriate hand signal.

In this play F1 NEVER held the ball in a legal pitching position to begin with, so by rule, the ball was not live at the time of the "hidden ball trick".

I believe it's been said many times. Whenever their is TIME on the field the Hidden Ball Trick is a dead issue.

Pete Booth

[Rog]

re: "In Rog's message one of his links was directed to '5.00 Putting the Ball in Play. Live Ball' section of the rule book. He just made me look it up and read it."
This way you know that it is a "real" rule; and, not something one of us made up or pieced together.
But, I probably should have added what Mike did -"thanks" to him for clarifying it for you - my bad.....

[brumey1107]

Rog -

And I appreciate that, no complaints here! Just glad to get the correct call.

Thanks again!

[BJ Moose]

You didn't say if the IBB was with 4 wide ones... or directed. (I've seen FED games where they threw the ball 4 times... blows my mind, but I ain't the coach).

Of course, if pitched the ball really never becomes dead.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by BJ Moose
You didn't say if the IBB was with 4 wide ones... or directed. (I've seen FED games where they threw the ball 4 times... blows my mind, but I ain't the coach).

Of course, if pitched the ball really never becomes dead.

By FED definition, and IBB is directed (dead ball award; no pitches thrown). See 2-4-3

[tdun44]

I agree with the call made on the field. Here is why; The pitcher was on the mound and ready to play. I do not believe it is the umpires responsibility to make sure the pitcher has the ball. It is the coaches responsibility to know the rules and to teach his players the rules.
The pitcher was on the mound when the pu put the ball in play. The defense executed the "hidden ball trick" after the ball was in play,therefore since the pitcher was on the mound without the ball it is a balk, game over.
Did I miss anything?
Thankyou for reading.
Ty Dunaway