Strike Two on the evading the ?? front..
 

Kyle:
with all due respect, to quote John McEnroe, "You cannot be serious."

That cannot be a serious example you raise. On what planet has that example happened?

I personally don't call your position a high horse. I respect your position.

It speaks volumes that nobody can adequately address the questions I pose and instead choose to dodge them or cite ludicrous examples.

Just calling 'em as I see them. :cool:

If it's a question of ethics read the link I just posted titled "Umpire Ethics" and see what you think. I'm not holding out much hope though.

I ain't mad at anyone bro' I wasn't raised like that. :D

Hi Slav:

what you are finding out or most likely already knew is that umpires for the most part are divided into various "camps" regarding certain issues.

It's akin to a tag play on a runner in which Evans and Roder have different philosophies. Some umpires are in the Evans Camp and some are in the Roder Camp.

My main point which I believe you are trying to point out also is that the FYC or "sending a message" IS a game management tool.

Whether you like it or not is moot because IMO I do not believe that if an umpire uses this technique then they should automatically be labeled as having no ethics or is "cheating' the game.

IMO, it's like many things in life "try it" and see.

I have done that with many things over my careeer from trying new stances behind the dish to experimenting with positions "B" / "C" when doing the bases etc.

Same is true for Game management tools. Try some and see if it works. Ie; The ole line-up card routine when a coach is giving you a hard time. Rather then get bent out of shape have that mono on mono chat with the coach and most of the times - problem solved.

There are many type examples in dealing with Game management which is the "nuts / bolts" of umpiring.

The point is: Most of us had to learn how to control a game.

How did we learn?

Watching other umpires, "picking the brains" of officials who have good management skills and Trying it out for oursleves

What's getting lost in all of this discussion is this.

The FYC is NOT used Everyday. It is used perhaps 1/2 times a year and when used can be effective.


Pete Booth

Years ago in a nonconference D1 game, a batter drew that line where he thought the pitch was (incorrectly) called. My partner, the PU, called time and yelled at the head coach, "Steve, did you see that?" The coach replied, "Yes". My partner then told the player, "When you finish your time at bat, go back to the dugout and tell your teammates that you have not only drawn YOUR strike zone for the rest of the game, but theirs as well."

An inning later I looked into the dugout and wondered why that player was sitting all alone on one end of the dugout.

After the game my partner smiled and said, "One thing I learned in Pro ball was you don't have to DO anything to them, you just have to make them THINK you're going to do something to them."

Not sure I subscribe to this line of thinking, but it sure worked for that level of ball on that day.

JJ

Not at all an appropriate comparison. Neither Roder nor Evans would advocating lying about the facts of the call or ruling. They just might have a different interpretation of the rule.

Yes it is. And an unnecessary and dishonest one.

Define it as you will, but knowingly and purposefully calling a cock shot a ball is being dishonest.

Good tool. Unlike the FYC, no lying involved.

And most of us learned to accomplish this without resorting to misrepresenting the truth.


Okay, so you only lie to the players, coaches and fans some of the time. That's much better.

Let's say you pissed off your auto mechanic. To get even with you, he tells you that you need to replace your alternator when all you really need is a belt. Is that okay with you?

You son showed up his history teacher. So to send a message, his teacher marks a correct answer on a test as being incorrect. Okay still?

A caoch comes out to you and tells you that he's subbing a kid properly, but instead he had two kids switch jerseys and he's bringing back a starter. What the he!!, it's not as if lying were unethical or anything.

[QUOTE]That is your opinion and not FACT.

Also, from your post you do not get IT

The FYC or 'sedning a message" is a tool used ONCE/ TWICE per year TOPS.

It's PRIMARY use is to keep a player in the game who under normal circumstances would be ejected because of his behavior / antics. In baseball as I previously mentioned in another response unlike other sports we do not have the luxory of issuing a 15 yard penalty and automatic first down at our disposal for unsportsmanlike acts.

Also, as another poster noted the players have to know what IT is and the times I have used IT the players definitely knew what IT was.

I had players after the game apologize for their behavior but more importantly thanked me for keeping them in the game and avoiding an automatic one game suspension for the next game.

Like I said it's a tool that obviously you and some others are uncomfortable using which is fine but to then say is absurd and strictly opinionated.


Pete Booth

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;550278]Oh, I get it. Even used it 20 years ago.

Frequency of lying has no bearing on the lie.

If that's the only tool you have for that situation, you are working games under-equipped.

Pete, here's a reality check. A pitch comes right down the middle, thigh high. You see it correcly. You know it's a strike, but to send a message, you call it a ball.

Question: Did you or did you not lie when announcing to the world that the pitch was a ball?

Forget your intent. Forget your lack of other tools. Answer the simple question, is not calling a ball on a pitch that you know to be a strike untruthful? Yes or no, Pete. Forget the rationalization that aids your comfort. Just answer that question yes or no.

There is no need or reason to lie about an FYC - that would destroy the message. If done at the right time for the right reason the point is made and life (And the game) moves on.

The FYC is the lie.

Look, I completely understand the FYC. I used at the D-1 level years ago. I have since come to understand the there are other and better tools of game management than lying.

At a Florida Classic, Evans disparaged the FYC and predicted the exact results someday that the young MiLB umpire experienced in the video posted earlier.

The game evolves. Umpiring evolves. One CAN umpire and be honest.

If you feel you have to use the FYC, fine. Just know it for what it is...a lie.

_____________

Edited to ask: I'm curious. To those who work other sports: In what other sport do officials feel free to lie about a call to send a message? Football? Basketball? Curling?

And if you don't make the FYC there's no need to even think about lying (and compounding a lie with another lie).

Paradigm Shift
 

Lets not go into ethics or morals, truth or lies, right or wrong.
Stay away from the FYC. Its a dead horse.
Some teams won't wink twice about a call made in their favor.
A coach ever dispute a bad call made against the other team?

Now, I have been known to miss a call, hell maybe even a half dozen or so a game.
Why do they have to be so close?
Some folks recognize human error when it happens and some folks tend to ride a dead horse pretty hard.

I, certainly, won't lose any sleep about someone yelling barbs from the furthest splinter of piney wood.
But if its up close and personal and persistent, I would like it to stop.
Hurry and get over it before I mess up again.
Before you realize it, I may have made another bad call. FYC!

Have another drink. It's early.

Professional Courtesy
 

Back to the OP, when have you done IT.
So you never consider IT? Only a few times in your long career?

Before I start, has anyone admitted making that call.
Don't get me wrong, but 5 pages of IT and I find very few solid examples posted above.

Let me offer. Outside pitch. I ball it.
Coach asks catcher for location.
Catcher, being a team player, shrugs to pacify his coach.
Truth be known, the pitch was outside.
Well, next pitch, same location. FYC!

Who hasn't had this happen to them on occasion?
And if it is used at all, it should be used at the lowest level. LL coaches are the worst ....

Wait.

The first pitch was a ball. You called it ball.

The next pitch, same location, was a ball. You, again, called it a ball.

Who are you effing on this call?







Make mine a double.

I've Had enough
 

I greatly resent being call a liar and untruthful and all kinds of other things by some of you if I use a message pitch once or twice over several years.

It is becoming rather obvious at this point that you either don't understand the concept of the message pitch, or you are just being obtuse. If you disagree with people who use the message pitch, fine. Even using a sharp elbow about it is fine too. that is how we all get better.

But when you start attacking the character of another umpire with words like lie, and untruthful, then you have crossed a line. Umpires have to be people of trust and honesty, for both sides. Don't start attaching words that are loaded with trouble for other umpires who disagree with your stance on this type of issue.

Let's get this important conversation back to a level of discussion between friends and fellow umpires, as opposed to a boxing match with rhetoric.

Easy solution. Don't put yourself in a position where you feel the need to lie about a call.

Neither. Having used the FYC at higher amateur levels, I understand it perfectly. The only ones being obtuse are those who utlize a tool that requires a lies denying that they lie.


It is what it is. An FYC is, by definition, a lie. If you use it fine, but realize what it is and be man enough to accept it and live with it without whining about it.