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Infield fly not called
Believe it was the 5th inning in game 5 WS. Wicked fly ball to right side of infield because of rain and wind. Caught with much effort by infielder. Announcers mention "no infield fly signaled" and then pontificate on "If he intentionally dropped it they could have gotten a DP". Did I hear right?
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Yep. You heard right. But what would you expect from these announcers. To their credit, they did come on after the commercial and read the rule, waiting until the end to say “with ordinary effort". Great non-call.
I really liked the sounds of the game when U1 came over and told the HP that the foul line was wiped out in front of 1st base on that last slide and the GK should fix it. He said, and I paraphrase, "that's your call up to first so we should get it fixed so you won't have any problem." |
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Which was impossible since if no infield fly was called an intentionally dropped fly ball or line drive is a dead ball and batter is out and runners return.
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Wind is a factor in whether to call IFF, sun is not. I guess under the conditions, wind and downpour combined are also a factor...
I remember a game several years ago I was working BU on a windy day, wind coming in from RF, and went out on fly ball to right because I thought it might be a shoe stringer. F4 went out too and wind blew the ball back into infield to about where F4 was before he went out. No IFF was called that day on any plays. |
sun could absolutely be a factor. take the same situation as in game 5, but make it a day game with a bright sun. ball goes up above F4's position and should be a "routine" catch, but he looks up and right into the sun, causing him to move his head away and put his arms up over his head for protection. reading this reaction of the fielder, you no longer have a catch that is about to be made with ordinary effort, you have a fielder that doesn't know where the ball is. you're telling me you're going to call infield fly on that?
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Tim Tschida, the first base umpire, covered the IFF situation in the post suspended game interview quite nicely.
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bobby,
I suspect that J/R isn't your favorite rules interpretation source, but they say that wind is a factor in not calling IFF, but sun and natural darkness are not. In the particular example you site, I think most umpires would have already called the IFF once the ball reached its apex, and before (as I read your description) the fielder began to have trouble. |
Never read it, and 100% disagree. So a guy hits a popup in the infield and the second baseman sees it on the way up but loses it because it's getting dark out, and you're going to call infield fly? Ridiculous.
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I shouldn't have paraphrased it. They say:
"When determining ordinary effort wind is a factor, sun in a fielder's eyes and natural darkness (e.g., fly ball is temporarily lost above the lights) are not factors." |
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Infield fly or foul ball?
I saw this happen in a game I was watching a few years ago:
R1 & R2 less than 2 out. Batter hits a high pop fly behind home plate. Catcher overruns it and the ball falls untouched in foul territory behind the plate then trickles into fair territory. The catcher should have easily caught it, and it was a fair ball - so IFF, right? No call was made. The pitcher piched up the "foul ball" and play continued. What would you do in this situation? |
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And to the question of others, "Ordinary Effort" is the umpire's judgment - no one else's. |
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If the umpirese decide that it should have been an infield fly, then they'll allow the defense only one out. If the defense gets one out on the play (or no outs on the play), then the play stands. If the defense gets two or three outs on the play, then the umpires will declare the batter out and return all the other runners. Based on what I saw of the play in question, I would have called the infield fly. (To be fair, I didn't see a previousl paly in which a "routine" pop up in the infied was not caught -- that might have changed my judgment on the play in question.) |
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Bob, Jimmy Rollins drop of a routine fly ball "set the stage" for the umpires NOT to invoke the IFR. Rollins had all kinds of trouble trying to field what would have been a "can of corn" under normal conditions. Therefore, on the play in question, the IFR was NOT invoked because the condtions had gotten so bad that a normal fly ball was now judged differently. The interesting question would have been Suppose the ball was dropped and the defense went on to complete the DP. Since the umpire judged that the ball could not be caught with ordinary effort, no IFR to invoke and the call would most likely stand. However, the umpires put a run on the Board some 3 innings later in the O's Indians game a couple of years back so anything is possible. Pete Booth |
I think this was another error on the part of this crew. The IFF is designed to protect the offense in this situation, and by not calling it, they failed to protect the offensive team. You can't "not protect" them just because it's raining.
If they call IFF and the ball is dropped everyone is happy (1 out against the off. team). If they do not call IFF and the ball would have been dropped, somebody is getting pissed (most likely the off. team because the runners are hanging out near the bases expecting the ball to be caught and the def. team has a good shot at a DP (force at 3b and 2b). |
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No IFF rule is called and no one is able to make the play but the defense recovers and is able to get a force at 3b and 2b. Now you have a sh#tstorm. IIRC, if uncaught, the ball would have landed in the infield dirt. Call the IFF rule and reference the "preventive umpiring" section of the rule book. I'm just offering what I would have done. It was just surprising to see a pop-up come down in this area of the infield and not see anyone call the IFF rule. And you know it was unusual if the announcers picked up on it.;) |
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More likely, you meant that in fact the fielder did not catch the ball, though he could have. This is still an IFF. Think of it this way: the IFF rule is intended to prevent the defense from making a DP on a pop-up in the infield. So if you've got a pop-up, and the defense gets 2 outs from it, you probably should have called an IFF. If that happens, then fix it: send the runners back and declare the batter out. |
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My reply would be: "Well, I wasn't sure, Now I'm sure, I'm calling it retroactively." Just looking for other thoughts...I often work adult league 1-man. |
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griff |
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you're right griff...my bad...did realize you were replying to a previous post.
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Landing foul and rolling fair (and then being touched...) will still result in an infield fly (if the other conditions are met). |
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thanks |
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The ball then rolls into fair territory where he picks it up, making it a fair ball. Because it is a fair ball that could have been caught with ordinary effort, we have an infield fly. |
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that makes perfect sense...thanks Seth
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Sure Am!
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The characteristics of the batted ball are what I consider when calling an infield fly (along with conforming to the rule, of course). The wind is a physical factor acting on the batted ball, making it move laterally in an unpredictable fashion. A fielder can't be expected to catch a wind deviated fly ball with ordinary effort. His integrity does not matter because we can see the affect the wind is having on the batted ball. As an aside, the rule is all about protecting the offense. D |
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I once had the offensive manager come out to argue this very play. When I politely explained to him that I was making the ruling to protect his runner(s), he commented, "Oh," and walked away. |
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It was the right call, and nobody argued. But, as a fan who was sitting in the stands rooting for the offense, I was upset (not upset with the umps, just upset in general) that a rule designed to protect the offense actually screwed my team. :eek: |
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Throughout this thread several poster's keep coming back to it was a ball that should have been caught with ordinary effort....maybe so...,or I would call it at it's apex. What seems to be left out is the judgement portion of the rule, as well as the judgement of the umpires on the field fighting the elements, living it, not sitting home with a cold one watching the game. So what I gather from some, is that simply because the ball was in the infield, it should have been caught with ordinary effort. That's wrong. Take this play.....bases loaded, one out, high fly ball is hit near the first base line, 20 feet up the line from the plate. Catcher can't find it, as the ball hits it's apex, it's spotted and F1, 2, and 3, rush in, with the first baseman diving unsucessfully. The ball lands and stops in fair territory. All runners advanced one base, with R3 scoring. If you employ the addage of it should have been caught, so it's an IFF your wrong. There is clearly no ordinary effort in this play. Something some need to add into their thought process, when calling an IFF is, is there a fielder comfortably under the ball to make that catch? If not, you very well may not have an IFF. Weather can and does very often come into play when deciding to call an IFF or not. Including the sun.
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You're right that weather can enter the judgment of whether ordinary effort could be sufficient to make a play. But the question of whether we expect a fielder to make the catch is irrelevant. |
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How about this: Lefty Pullsall is at bat, 1st & 2nd, no out. Lefty has never hit a ball to left field in his life. The defense is stacked on the right side, except for F7, who is in very shallow left field, close enough to 3rd base to prevent R2 from taking an easy base. Lefty hits a soft fly right around 3B. F7 gets under it but lets it drop for an easy triple play. No other fielder had a chance at the ball. Is it an infield fly? |
Only if, in the judgment of an umpire, an INfielder could have caught the ball with ordinary effort.
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You also must judge if F7 was stationed in the infield in this scenario.
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Even if he wasn't, if an infielder could have caught the ball with ordinary effort, the I.F. can still be called, of course.
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From my OP: F7 was positioned in shallow LF (he is an outfielder). No other fielder had a chance at the ball. Infield fly?
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If no other fielder had a chance at the ball, it sure sounds like an infielder could not have caught the ball with ordinary effort; hence no I.F.
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or "I would've called it the same way for your team" Typically you're not going to get the defensive coach arguing...most coaches "get it"...where you could get in trouble is OC coming out saying "why didn't you call it?" |
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And no, I'll keep it fielder, F6, goes out onto the outfield grass, using ordinary effort, he is 20' onto the outfield grass and he is comfortable under the ball. F8 comes in and calls him off making the catch. Still an IFF in my book. |
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Under the "spirit of the rule," this (my sitch) clearly SHOULD be an infield fly. But under the letter of the rule, the only way it is an infield fly is if F7 is judged to be an infielder. I don't think it is a stretch to do that. |
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Which is why Jimmy says.....Sometimes you just gotta umpire...
Dash, I know the rule and I know the test. In fact, I usually do very well on them. I think we agree, were just hung up on the word fielder. In order for it to be an IFF, I understand the infielder with ordinary effort part of the rule, I also understand that any fielder can catch it if the critera is met for an IFF. Or to quote Jimmy one more time.....Sometimes you just gotta umpire. |
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