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-   -   Did he balk? (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/49488-did-he-balk.html)

bossman72 Thu Oct 23, 2008 08:27pm

Pickoff play looms large in Game 1 | raysbaseball.com: News


Also, very tough to call from the camera angle

UMP25 Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emperor Ump (Post 545135)
I disagree. I do not believe it was a balk.

From the above and the behind replays you can see he is gaining distance to 1st base. Albeit more to the 45' mark, he gained more distance to first than to home (there was very little gained either direction, but more is more). Great no call.

This was a good, legal move, Pena just broke too early and gave the Phillies the opportunity to get him. You will see this move at the HS level too.

What is it with this "45-degree" mark? It's a frickin' myth! It doesn't exist. You guys have been listening to too much Tim McCarver.

The first time one learns to forget this mythical 45-degree reference will be the first time one better understands how to call a balk in these cases anyway.

tballump Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:23pm

Thought I read somewhere that if you see clear daylight between the toe of the pivot foot and the heal of the non-pivot or free foot you have the step taken care of with a lefthanded pitcher.

No daylight would mean no step towards first and probably also mean a step towards home. Since there was daylight, it would seem the only question might be, did he "lean" in towards home or did the non-pivot foot pass the rubber in which case the 1st base umpire would have a better view than anyone else.

It also looked like the runner was going with the first movement (gambling) regardless of whether the pitcher was going home or going to 1st, although Madden said he wasn't. The runner just ducked his head when he was called out at second and didn't even question or make even a slight hand motion (they are great at those hand motions) about a possible balk.

realistic Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:17am

Distance and direction are the two things needed when stepping to first. His foot pointed to first base and his foot moved to first base. It doesn't matter how much. TB wanted the call because they got fooled. JM argued that the pitcher's ordinary move (I think he said "read") was not what he did. It doesn't matter. I thought Tim Welke handled it perfectly.

Paul L Fri Oct 24, 2008 01:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by UMP25 (Post 545347)
What is it with this "45-degree" mark? It's a frickin' myth! It doesn't exist. You guys have been listening to too much Tim McCarver.

The first time one learns to forget this mythical 45-degree reference will be the first time one better understands how to call a balk in these cases anyway.

Jim Evans perpetrates this "myth" very plainly in his balk video. Good enough for me.

johnnyg08 Fri Oct 24, 2008 07:10am

but it's a guideline, not a rule.

Emperor Ump Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UMP25 (Post 545347)
What is it with this "45-degree" mark? It's a frickin' myth! It doesn't exist. You guys have been listening to too much Tim McCarver.

The first time one learns to forget this mythical 45-degree reference will be the first time one better understands how to call a balk in these cases anyway.

This is a training guideline I was taught (Not at JEAPU). It doesn't appear in any rules book but gives a good consistent guideline as to what is gaining distance to 1st vs home.

Fritz Fri Oct 24, 2008 01:16pm

was watching this live and thought it was a balk as well, mainly because it looked like the pitcher was starting to go home with his upper body, saw the runner take off, and then dropped his front foot down and as much toward first as he could at the time. And you are right, I see this at the HS level often enough to be ready to make that call. But if you rarely see it, it is pretty easy to let it go since it was a close call.

SanDiegoSteve Fri Oct 24, 2008 05:12pm

I saw it over and over and if this is not a step balk, then I've never seen one. His front leg came down almost where it would on a delivery to the plate. Definitely more towards home than first. His entire lower body was going toward home and just his upper torso toward first.

gotblue? Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve (Post 545624)
I saw it over and over and if this is not a step balk, then I've never seen one. His front leg came down almost where it would on a delivery to the plate. Definitely more towards home than first. His entire lower body was going toward home and just his upper torso toward first.

"His front leg came down almost where it would on a delivery to the plate."

Not even close. His front foot came down about a foot from where he lifted it. In delivering to the plate, his front foot would have come down probably two feet from the spot where it landed, and much more in the direction of the plate.

For those who use 45 degrees as a guideline, I haven't done it, but I daresay that if you drew in a 45 degree line, his foot would be well to the 1B side of it.

(RedSox fan, but trying to be objective about the officiating)

SanDiegoSteve Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gotblue? (Post 545683)
"His front leg came down almost where it would on a delivery to the plate."

Not even close. His front foot came down about a foot from where he lifted it. In delivering to the plate, his front foot would have come down probably two feet from the spot where it landed, and much more in the direction of the plate.

Yes, a foot from where he lifted it, and in the direction of the plate. Two feet from the spot where it would have came down? That sounds pretty close to me, which is what I said, "almost." He most definitely did not gain distance and direction towards first. Unless your a Phillies fan.

Dave Reed Sat Oct 25, 2008 01:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emperor Ump (Post 545543)
This is a training guideline I was taught (Not at JEAPU). It doesn't appear in any rules book but gives a good consistent guideline as to what is gaining distance to 1st vs home.

The 45 degree guideine doesn't appear in the OBR rulebook, but it is in the NCAA book--9-1a: "(6) The pitcher must step directly and gain ground toward a base in an attempt to pick off a runner. “Directly” is interpreted to mean within a 45-degree angle measuring from the pivot foot toward the base the pitcher is throwing to or feinting a throw."

And it shows up in the Fed Casebook: "6.2.4 SITUATION B: With R1 on first, F1 attempts a pickoff while stepping at an angle but to the home plate side. RULING: Balk. To comply with the requirement to “step directly toward,” F1 must step to the first-base side of a 45-degree angle between center of pitcher’s plate and between home and first base. (6-2-4b)


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