What is the correct call?
 

This is a Fall League, Babe Ruth, 16U, OBR, enclosed field, day game but there are lights if needed! :eek: I am an observer for the PU.

As is with many of the fields that we use, there are not bull pens so the relief pitcher and a catcher go down the line (right field in this case) with a third player for protection.

There is 1 out with R1, batter hits a screamer that bounces on the dirt inside of 1st base (pointed fair by the PU). The ball is missed by F3 and is still screaming down the line when it bounces again and heads into foul territory (damn thing is still running like it was on afterburners). F9 is charging to the line when the ball hits something and takes to the air (like a rising fastball :rolleyes:). The player assigned to protect the battery warming up instinctively reaches out to protect himself and catches the ball.

The PU killed the ball and was approached by the base coach who is looking for an obstruction call. The PU and the BU get together and agree on obstruction. At this point, the defensive manager comes out and argues how obstruction can be called when no runner was obstructed. He also added that if the call is in fact obstruction, there has to be a base award. So the PU and the BU re-confer and come up with interference. Now the Offensive manager is questioning how it could be interference when the offense didn't do anything wrong! It's beginning to look like the coaches know more than the umpires!

The PU and BU now move their conference to the fence in front of me. I see what is about to happen and I just wave and tell them that I will be in the parking lot.

They ruled a dead ball and put R1 back at 1st, the BR back in the batter's box with the original count of 2-1. The game was protested.

Is the offending protecting player on the defensive or offensive team. Trying to remember if that matters.......

intentional interference by a person authorized to be on the playing field

Impose such penalties so as to nullify the interference.

3.15

It does matter...this happened to me this past summer...the offense hit a screamer down the 1b line, probably similar to the OP. However the offense sent a player down the line to shag a foul ball from a previous pitch. The shagger grabs the ball assuming the batted ball to be foul as well.

I immediately killed the play place R1 at 2b and B/R at 1B...My justification was that I was not going to give R1 a free base (3B) because his own player caused the dead ball.

Had this been a defensive player (example: defensive player chasing a ball down the third base line) I would've awarded the bases that they would've reached had the interference not occurred...R1 to 3B, B/R to 2B...

That's how I would've ruled it.

Either way, my understanding is that as soon as somebody else touches the ball who shouldn't be on the field at that time and prevents the defense from making a play...there's got to be a call...

I realize that there's holes in my above post...(neutral ball boy/girl, base coaches, etc..)..but I don't want to type any more.

Who else has thoughts?

Bingo!!

"Obstruction" would not be the correct ruling. Just place runners in your judgment would nullify the interference.

Why would the penalty be any different? While you are allowed by rule to put the runners anywhere you want, you aren't giving the offense anything more than they would have gotten anyway no matter color uniform the interfering player is wearing. By imposing different penalties depending on who does what you are effectively making $hit up. Consistency is a virtue. Seersucker is a fabric.

This call sounds right to me.

I bet it was seeing as how the batter hit a fair ball.

I would go with this one if I was on the field.

Isn't that what he's there for? If it's coming at him, isn't it his job to protect the battery? How is he supposed to do that if he isn't supposed to touch the ball?

Why aren't there ground rules for this?

Or am I missing something?

Rita

There aren't ground rules because it's already in the rules, as I posted above. 3.15

This is coming from an ump and more importantly an ex-player.
The guy is there to protect the battery on a FOUL ball...I know there is nothing in the rules, but this is an unwritten rule and just common sense...at 16U, you never know..It's his job to warn his teammates - "heads up" - no matter how fast a fair ball is coming their way..

You are not missing anything Rita...just one of those plays you have to just umpire..using the interference rule as Bobby cited..:D

I see your point...but you can't really have a one size fits all ruling here...the rule doesn't even say that. I wouldn't be making anything up. Why would I reward the offense for a mistake by somebody on their own team? Right or wrong, that was my rationale...certainly I'll read the rest of these threads and learn one way or another. thanks for your post!

If the offense interferes, then I'm going to penalize accordingly. I'm not going to give them anything I don't have to.

Same as a player interfering with ball in front of the dugout.

Thanks
David

You don't have to give them the world, you just HAVE to give them what would nullify the act of interference. Even if Ichiro was in right and David Ortiz was batting, a ball that went fair over the bag and ended up in the bullpen would result in Ortiz at 2B, ball interfered with or not. That being said, the only questions that remain are just how far R1 and the B/R would have advanced. If it was the offense's bullpen, then maybe your judgment would be that R1 would have only made it to 3B. If it was the defense's bullpen, maybe, just maybe, your judgment would have R1 scoring and maybe it would have been a triple. THAT inconsistency I can live with. Putting R1 at 2B and the B/R at 1B I don't buy.

Yes there is. Bobby has cited it repeatedly.

Wouldn't the penalty be the same as if there were intentional interference by a fan, ball girl, or camerman in the big leagues? You just place the runners where they should be as if there was no interference. Of course the offensive team manager if he is like Whitey Herzog, should argue that his player is Vince Coleman's brother and would have scored on the play rather than just made 3rd base.

I've never umpired a field that had the bullpen on the field. This is one good way to learn should I ever be on a field that does.

Rita

exactly!

I agree.

Two issues: 1) what's the call? 2) where to put the runners?

Authorized person interference is the right call, and it doesn't matter whose team interfered: this is not like runner interference or coach's interference, so we're not penalizing anyone. The spotter was doing his job and protecting the folks in the bullpen. The remedy for this kind of interference is just that: a remedy, not a penalty.

With that in mind, where do the runners go? Clearly BR has a double at least. If he's a speedy guy and the ball park is big, I might give him 3B, which would then take care of R1. If not, I'm looking at R1 to decide whether he could have scored -- the count and number of outs might be relevant here, too, since if he was off with the pitch it's likely he scores on a double.

If I give either runner more than 2 bases, I will have a damn good explanation ready for the opposing coach. 2 bases is an easy sell here; 3 requires more justification, for instance "Coach, R1's fast and he was off with the pitch: in my judgment he would have scored on a double down the line."

Some coaches might insist that R1 cannot advance past 3B on a "ground rule double." That's not what this is: the ball did not leave the field, and the rules require nullifying the act of interference, not a strict 2-base award.

The correct answer, and with a rules reference (that I didn't check, but I believe to be correct).

After so many years on these boards, I am not surprised by the continued discussion and incorrect answers after bobby's post, but I still wonder why it happens.

Ozzy Bobby nailed it. The relevant part of OBR 3.15 is in the Comment section.


In this OP we have an authorized person on the playing field who picks up a live ball. As the rules states regardless of what the players thought process was, the act of picking up the ball is considered Intentional Interference and the umpire has discretion on what penalty to impose.

Pete Booth

I held off until the Protest Committee rendered the ruling (just to see if it got even more interesting). The Committee ruled that OBR 3.15 Comment did, in fact, cover the situation (thank you bobbybanaduck for the correct answer). I do not sit on the Committee but I was asked for an interpretation on the rule and the correct application.

The Protest Committee ruled that the umpires were wrong for the "do-over" and ruled that the game be replayed from the top of the 5th inning with R1 scoring and the BR at 2nd base. Both Managers were in agreement and the game was completed under the lights last night. The PU and BU were both informed of the ruling and they offered to officiate the replay. The Committee saw no problem with this as this is a Fall League. I did observe the game and all went well.

In my opinion, there are a lot of umpires out there that really need to brush up on the rules, especially the ones that you rarely run across. Not all of us are as fortunate as to have real bull pens (other than HS & College fields) so a rule such as this could very easily come into play.

[Ozzy just curious this is Fall ball so why even bother picking up the game in the top of the 5th to begin with.

It's Fall ball so what's the point.

Also, you said that the umpires offered to do the game so I take it to mean they did not get paid (again) to show up.

Thanks

Pete Booth

I agree with this the most.

Fair is fair, and a bolt down the line that takes a right turn behind first is a double, period. A first-to-third scenario is allowable for B1, but not a Vince-Coleman's-brother scenario. :)

And, this is one of those make it up if you have to deals, but if you take the fairest, least complicated route to a ruling, it's more likely to be correct. In this case, as in most cases, the fairest ruling was the right one.

point well taken...that makes sense...I've never heard this issue being discussed before so in my case, I knew the rule, just not how to interpret it so I had to make my own interpretation...if I could do it over...I'd probably lean in the direction of your post...but as we know...each situation is different...

do we look at where the ball would've gone had the interference not occurred...regardless of who (offense/defense) commits the infraction?

absolutely. if the ball would have rolled out of play for a GR double, then you have a good reason for leaving him at 2B and R1 at 3B with no argument.

You need to get out more often. The majority of baseball fields have the bullpens down the left and right field lines.

Mybe where you live, but not everywhere.

I'm sorry..what page does it say that there must be protection for players warming up on the field?

The same page it says there must be bat boys, ball shaggers down the lines, etc. They don't have to bring someone out there, but if they want to, how many umpires are going to have a problem with it? "Authorized" does not mean required.

On some law book page that says I can get sued if I see F1/F2 warming up with no protector and do nothing about it. Then God forbid a line shot hit's either F1/F2 and now the laywers get involved.

It's a safety issue which makes the "protector" an authorized person to be on the field.

Pete Booth

Absolutely true. And I'm certainly one of those that needs to brush up. I find the rules that I've blown the worst are the ones I remember the best now! It's good to read the rules, but it's even better to apply them and learn from mistakes (our own as well as those of others).

The question regarded interference. You stated there was no rule covering this situation. Bobby has posted it repeatedly. Try reading it.

As far as the Fall League, all games are played as in Summer Ball. There are standings, and winner gets trophies and dinner at a sponsor restaurant.

Yes, the umpires offered to do the game for no fee. The assigner took them to dinner following the game so they made out okay. The assigner pays for the entire meal including beers. The final game of the Fall Season is officiated by 6 volunteer umpires and the assigner takes us all to dinner afterward. I've been doing this for 20 years, every Fall.

This particular League has this as their one and only "home rule". I have worked many fields where managers require a third player on their own. I have no problem with this.

Agree. Person authorized to be on the playing field is designated to intentionally interfere. That is reason for being there.

Likely a double, unless runner is particularly speedy and umpire thinks he may have legged out a triple absent the interference. I'm not sure I would go that far.

Not around here, dear.

Rita

Not knowing exactly where "here" is, I guess you're right. A great many professional baseball stadiums have bullpens on the field, and the vast majority of high school and college yards here in the baseball hotbed of the United States, the SoCal area, feature them as well.

Maybe not where you live, but everywhere else.

You can't swing a dead cat around here without hitting a field with bullpens down the line. I just don't see what the big deal and drama is about that to start with. Anyone ever watched an MLB game? Chock full of bullpens down the foul lines. All over the country, too. Not a regional thing, dude.

Actually, I don't think either of use has toured the country enough to be able to reach a definitive conclusion.

The use of "dude" is a regional thing, however.

Surf's up, dude!
 

:):):):):):)

Actually I've toured the country quite a bit. But I have also watched a whole bunch of big league games on TV and in person, and have seen bullpens down the lines - on the field - in a great many ballparks and stadiums from sea to shining sea, God Bless America:cool: