I'm thinking that the difference is that if the force of the tag is the cause of the ball coming loose - it's not a tag. Rationale: if the ball came loose you didn't have secure possession.

Getting steamrolled could therefore be looked at as the force of the tag causing the ball to come loose.

In the Varitek play the tag was over and subsequent action caused the ball to come loose.


Just my 2 cents.

Rich, that has always been my understanding.

Ball comes out during tag = no control of ball/not securely held.

Ball comes out after tag = valid tag, as long as ball was secure during the tagging action itself.

Oddly enough, I had just posted the different Evans and Roder criteria for judging the validity of a tag on a thread on the umpire.org site just before this play happened last night.

To me, the Evans interp always made more sense and was more consistent with the actual text of the rules, and I thought Welke's call was correct.

I believe Rich Ives hits the key distinction in his post above - the tag itself did not result in Varitek (involuntarily) losing control of the ball. His lack of body control did.

But, since "voluntary release" is not a criteria for establishing the validity of a tag (unless you subscribe to Roder's hypothesis, of course), and Varitek clearly had "secure possession" of the ball before, during, and immediately after the tag, it's a good tag.

JM

The video...I don't remmeber if anybody posted the link on here or not.

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/media/v...00013&c_id=bos

Just for the record...
 

I thought it was a good call, except for him not staying with the play, and not asking for a conference. He got the actual play right, but did it the wrong way.

If he got it right, knew he got it right, why would he conference?

I agree that he should've stayed w/ the play...but the conference is not always necessary...I wish more people agreed w/ me on that...maybe I'm the one who's wrong on that?

Whoa!

If you subscribe to the out call, then what he did was perfect. He saw the tag with a controlled ball, and called the out. No need to follow the ball, nor any need to get help. It was all right in front of him. You wouldn't get help on this one, unless it was protested.

Good point!

Bingo!

Okay my children, let's go back to this famous play.

Kit hits a triple, but decides to go for the dish. Evelyn finally hits her cutoff, and the throw comes home. Dottie has the ball, and braces for impact. Kit sends Dottie flying. Whilst in flight, Dottie has a secure hold of the ball. It's only until Dottie's back smacks the ground, and she comes to rest on the ground does she release the orb.

Enter Squiggy. "SHE DROPPED THE BALL!"

So, what was the call here?

Safe - force of the tag caused the ball to come out (because F2 was plowed over while tagging).

Just because the ball came loose and he never even knew it. He should have sucked it up and made sure he got it right.

Dottie dropped it on purpose to give her sister her confidence back.

Beats me. i don't work softball.

Are you brand new?