out of baseline??
 

Runner takes a wide turn around third and heads home. The catcher runs up the line while the ball is in flight from the centerfielder. The runner runs to the right of the catcher which makes him look like he is way out of the baseline. After the runner has passed the catcher, the catcher catches the ball and tries to swipe tag the runner, who is already behind him and trying to get to the plate.

The coach said he was out of baseline. I ruled the runner safe, because he established his baseline after he rounded third, and he was also avoiding a collision with the catcher. I also told the coach that I could have called obstruction on the catcher because he was in the runners basepath without the ball.

What do you think?

Hmmm..."the catcher runs up the line...the runner runs to the right of the catcher...after the runner has passed the catcher the catcher catches the ball...I also told the coach that I could have called obstruction on the catcher..."

I guess we'd all like to know what code you playing under. We'd also like to know why you DIDN'T call obstruction - from your description the catcher did not have the ball when the runner passed him, and being called out for being out of the baseline involves trying to avoid a tag, which is not possible if the catcher is not in possession of the ball trying to tag him. This is an easy call for me. "That's Obstruction!". Could have even been a no-call. When the coach comes out, I tell him just what I just told you - for me to call him out for being out of the baseline, he has to be trying to avoid a tag, and if the fielder involved didn't even have the ball then there WAS no tag attempt. Oh, and coach, if the fielder doesn't have the ball, he can't be in the runner's way - that's obstruction.

The runner cannot be out for being more than 3 feet out of his baseline unless and until a fielder with the ball attempts to tag him (the "rounding 3rd" part in your situation is irrelevant). You were correct in not calling it.

As for the OBS - you say the runner made a wide turn around 3rd while the catcher ran up the line. Doesn't sound like OBS to me. In any event, you shouldn't bring this up. If you could have called OBS, why didn't you?

In your opinion, did the throw take the catcher to his position?

I was in the field, my plate ump simply told him he was trying to avoid collision. I gave the coach both scenarios, obstruction, and the fact that he was not out of baseline because he was avoiding a collision.

thanks.

he came up the line toward 3rd about 15 - 20 feet or so. I was in the field

thanks.

I'm a little confused. You said in the OP that you ruled the runner safe, then explained things to the coach. But you also say that you were in the field.
That wasnt your call, or place to explain things. You should've just said
" Coach, talk to my partner, it was his call".......

Well the coach finally made it to me after he had his say to my partner. It was a babe ruth fall ball game and normally the coaches don't know anything in this league anyway. I tried my best to explain any situation where a runner is not ruled out of baseline so he would be quiet and go to the dugout. He was eventually in the parking lot.

If you're in the field this is not a discussion you should be having with the coach. It was your partner's call, therefore his explanation. I'd reserve any discussion with HIM for after the game, and then you bet I'd be having that discussion (why did you call what you did, and how did you explain your call to that coach?).
As field umpire it's not your position to try to explain your partner's call or no call. I have no idea in some plays why my partner makes the call he does, and I'm surely not going to try to explain what I don't know for 100% certainty. What happens if you disagree with his call from your vantage point - are you still going to try to explain his call to a coach? That's waaay out of my league...

JJ

I agree, but sometimes when you are calling games in a small town babe ruth league, where you have coaches and parents that don't know a whole lot about the game or umpiring, you have to go outside the box and away from normal umpiring techniques. If this had been a college game or even high school, we wouldn't be having this conversation. In this situation, the coach asked me about it, and told him what the rules were about baserunning. It started out as a normal conversation, but he preceded to take it too far. Appreciate the input.

WE either have OBS or we do not. you DO NOT tell a coach "I could have called OBS on F2" because the fact is you didn't so IMO that point is moot.

In a later response you said Babe Ruth Fall ball league. I believe Babe Ruth is OBR based. If that's the case it sounds as if F2 needed to be where he was in order to field the thrown ball. That is a different definition than some other rule codes which includes NCAA / FED.

The bottom line in this OP is that a base runner establishes his baseline when the defense applys a tag on him. The runner was already PAST F2 so that point is also moot.

Sounds as though both you and your partner need to attend a good umpire clinic.

Pete Booth

You are missing my point about why I did what I did. I was trying to give the coach the explanation about the baserunning rules, in which case I did correctly. My partner called him safe and he was correct, because of how his baseline was established after he rounded third, and also trying to avoid the collision. He came to me for verification and I gave it to him, which I don't mind doing in this league, and have to do quite often. I have called college ball in one of the best college associations around- midsouth collegiate, and I know what I am doing, but like I said - in some leagues you have to break away from traditional umpire techniques, as long as you get the call right, and are professional.

It's Fall ball, Pete. And if they run their Fall league in a similar fashion to the way we run ours here, it's an instructional league for not just players, but for newer coaches as well. It's not out of the norm to let a coach in on some of our secrets during Fall ball. Just don't give the super secret sign away.......



Tim.

fall ball sucks:p

griff

Tim I understand that this is Fall ball but NEW coaches also need to learn protocol

From the OP

later on the poster also says that he was BU which makes this entire OP very confusing.

If he was BU what's he doing making the call in the first place? It belongs to the PU. Explain to the new coach "Skip please talk to the PU"

Then if your partner asks you for your input give it.

If it's learning then allow the PU to explain himself.

As mentioned this OP was not very clear to begin with.

Pete Booth

A runner's baseline is not established until a fielder attempts a tag. In your original situation, the tag was attempted when the runner was behind the catcher, so it sounds like the issue of going around the catcher was moot.

As for the obstruction- the catcher was in the act of fielding the ball... no obstruction.

1. The issue of baseline is irrelevant, as many posters have noted, until the defense plays on a runner. At that point, the runner must run directly toward his advance or previous base. When not being played on, runners can literally go wherever they want.

2. The runner is under no obligation to avoid a collision. Indeed, such a collision is generally to a runner's advantage, since the fielder with which he collides is at risk of being called for obstruction.

As an "aside":
 

"BigRed Machine" is also trying to convince us that he is a "major college umpire" . . . which I find a stretch . . . prove me wrong and I will apologize.

Regards,

PS: Didn't think so . . .

I think the baseline is always a straight line between each base.
The base path is what you are concerned about when the defense is making a play on a runner(s)
Sorry, it just bothered me. They tell me baseline and base path are different subjects and not interchangeable.

The sentence sounds as if bigredmachine called college ball in one of the best college associations around in the past tense. It in no way implies he calls D-1 ball in the present or future tense.

ST

I'm not sure who "they" are but the rulebook uses baseLINE.

7.08 Any runner is out when—
(a) (1) He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner’s baseline is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely;

ST,

Actually, the sentence implies that he has called college ball, not that he used to call college ball. "I have called" can be either past or present tense. A verb tense expressing an action that began in the past and which has been completed or continues into the present is known as the present-perfect tense. The present-perfect is formed by combining "has" or "have" with a past participle, which in this case is the word, "worked."

• If you are the BU and the play is on the 3rd base line (other than assisting in a rundown), you have no business getting involved with the call. That is the PU's job!
• If the coach comes to you (Fall Ball or not) on a play as described above, you as the BU refer the coach to your partner and end the discussion.

Here is a perfect reason for you not being in this discussion. By your own description, the runner was making a wide turn and running down the line toward home. He ran past F2 and then F2 caught the ball. How do you as the BU have any input to this? This is where you have to learn to keep quiet and refer the coach to the PU..... no excuses!

This all started when I just wanted an opininon or explanation on what some other umps would have ruled. That way I knew my partner got the call right. Pete told me I needed to go to clinics, which I have to several. You guys start freakin out on me. I am not trying to convince anybody of anything, I have called college ball for 10 years, a few D1 non conference games, but mostly NAIA and JUCO. I had great evaluations, but I coach High School ball so I just do summer and fall ball now. Lighten up fellas.

Thanks for all the advice, that is why I joined the boards.

I can assure that is NOT going to happen here! ;)

....and welcome to the board.

No one's freaking out on you AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! ;):D

IMO, no-one "got on you"

Your OP was very confusing to say the least. You started your OP saying you made a call on a play that belongs to the PU. All indications in your opening post indicated to me and I believe others as well that you in FACT had the dish.

Then later on you tell us that were the BU.

IMO, that's where others includes myself started questioning you.

Even though it's fall ball I cannot understand why you as BU made a call that does not belong to you or try to explain your partners call to a coach. It doesn't make any sense and as mentioned was very confusing.

Therefore, no one was getting on "your case" just questioning your mechanics based upon your description of events.

Pete Booth

The thing about internet boards is that anyone can claim to be anything. In the end, how one handles oneself will prove that one is what one says one is. Case in point--in the OP, you ask a question about something that SHOULD have been covered in a first-year rookie clinic. That you needed to ask opinions here on this call will tend to make people question your credentials.

Moving along, and giving you the benefit of the doubt, if the particular league you were officiating expects you to teach the rules to coaches as you go, then I have no issue with that part (except that he first questioned the PU, didn't like what he heard, and THEN came to you). But keep it short, simple, and accurate (there was no tag attempt, so there cannot be an infraction for running outside the baseline).

And yes, welcome to the board.

Oz, dude: meds?;)

Your intitial post was that of a neophyte. Now you claim to be a 10 year vet of college ball. Those two bits of information do not and will not mesh.

Most likely you are either a troll, or a phony.

Yeah, meds didn't work at all this morning! :D