Does Run count?
 

Any help on this play? Bases loaded 2 outs. Ball 4 to the batter gets passed the catcher. Before the runner from 3rd reaches home, the aggressive runner advancing from second, rounds third and is tagged out after a throw from the catcher. Does the run count?

how about this one:

Bases loaded 2 outs. Batter hits a ball in the gap which clears the bases. Batter/Runner winds up on third base. Defense appeals the batter/runner missed second and he is called out. How many runs score?

Yes.


Three, assuming the rest of the runners were not called out for any reason.

why three?

How many preceding runners advanced to and touched home plate legally?

Once the batter-runner touches 1B a play on him becomes a time play. That is, any runners that touch the plate before the batter-runner is put out will score. This includes an appeal play at a base other than 1B, as described in your play.

LongIslandZebra:

Regarding your first question, we have already had this discussion last month: http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=47847

MTD, Sr.

As Mark stated, we went round and round with this before. Let's break it down.

1. Bases loaded, 2 out.
2. Batter walks (awarded 1st base)
3. All runners must advance at least 1 base.

Because of the award, the runner from 3rd scores no matter what. After that, everyone is on his own. In your case the runner rounding 3rd was caught off the base and therefore caused the 3rd out - inning over.

Don't be taken back because this is a question that many rookies (and some veterans) get wrong in the clinics. Like anything else, if you break it down and take it step by step, you can usually figure it out.

The run scores because it is an awarded base.

Ozzy:

I really need to get to bed because I just thought of something about the thread I linked in my post above. We all know that the run is "supposed" to count. What if, and I do mean if, the runner who is lally gagging from third to home plate, because the runner going from second to third has been tagged out after rounding third, decides to abandon his right to tag home and enters the dugout. What do we have? And what are we going to do?

MTD, Sr.

Good Question. If R3 is lolly gagging but still touches the plate, his run has to count. However, if R3 abandons, he may still touch the plate until he enters dead ball area (the dugout). This is an award not a base advancement.

Now if he enters the dugout, we are going to have a $hithouse because I am not going to count the run! R3 must touch the plate or if R3 becomes injured, a substitute must be brought in to touch the plate in order to complete the award.

This is covered in OBR 4.09 EXCEPTION The terminology used is Refuses to touch home plate but abandoning the base and refusing to touch IMO are similiar so you would call the runner out and NOT count the run.

Also, I cannot remember who said it but Punish stupidity whenever possible

Pete Booth

This is the best and most consise way I've heard/read this presented. Thanks PDX

Remember that while "no matter what" applies to the runner rounding 3B and being tagged out, it does not apply to every imaginable occurrence. The run does not count if the runner from 3B is declared out for entering DBT before touching home plate, or if another runner is declared out for some violation before the runner from 3B touches home.

prove it.

prove it.

This forum has discussed "declared out versus put out" several times over the past few years. There are case plays. All my books (J/R, BRD, Evans, etc.) are packed up at the moment, but maybe somebody will chip in.

I remember specifically the case play in which the batter hits a 2-out grand slam but rounds 1B and passes R1 before R3 touches the plate. No run in that case. I can't see why the same principle wouldn't hold after a base on balls.

Also, I cannot remember who said it but Punish stupidity whenever possible

Pete Booth[/QUOTE]

Amen...

Enough of the "what if's" in this scenario. This will not happen in shaving age, and if it happens below that, coaches, parents, and the groundskeeper will be on that kid to touch home..

That case play is NCAA 8-5m A.R. I'm not aware of any similar case play in OBR. But Childress does recommend for OBR that umpires treat the situation like NCAA.

However, and interestingly, he also has a caseplay (414 in my BRD) which explicitly says that with a bases loaded 2 out walk, the run scores even if R1 passes R2 before R3 scores. He lists PBUC 3.13 and 7.04 b CMT as justification, seemingly regarding the question of put our versus declared out as non-material.

R1, two outs. Batter hits the ball over the fence and passes R1 between 1B and 2B. Would you let R1 continue around the bases and score? I wouldn't.

greymule,

The crux of the plays under discussion is that the bases are loaded, and R3 is forced to advance on an award. A situation with only R1 is not relevant.

The question is: Is R3's advance to the plate (when forced to advance by an award with 2 outs) a timing play or not? OBR 7.04b and the following CMT make clear that it is not a timing play. [As an aside, notwithstanding Internet discussion and rationalization, the rules of baseball give the same effect to a put out and a declared out.]

If the force is removed, then subsequent scoring opportunities are timing plays. So on a walk, if for example R2 abandons before reaching third, then R3 doesn't score. For both single and multi-base awards, if B/R misses first or deserts, no runs score (in this case, because of 4.09). For multi-base awards, if B/R reaches first safely but is out before safely reaching second, only one run automatically scores, etc.

That's for OBR. NCAA has two inconsistent rulings:

This A.R. corresponds well to OBR 7.04b. The other NCAA ruling which is inconsistent with both OBR and the above NCAA ruling (and in my opinion, wrong) is:

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...8405&highlight

This thread from 2005 is quite relevant. I think I agree with my 2005 opinion, which was that the run from 3B scores on the base on balls even if BR passes R1. In the case of a force, I think "put out" and "declared out" should indeed be treated identically. Therefore, the odd opinion out is the NCAA ruling on the home run (8-5m).

Amen...

Enough of the "what if's" in this scenario. This will not happen in shaving age, and if it happens below that, coaches, parents, and the groundskeeper will be on that kid to touch home..[/QUOTE]

Can't take it not happening for granted.

In the 2005 thread (thanks!) Bob Jenkins points out a ruling from the NAPBL (subsequently PBUC) Manual which, contrary to what I wrote above, is similar to the NCAA 8-5m A.R. He ascribes the discrepancy between the BB example and the HR example to the difference between put out and declared out. I think it makes just as much sense to ascribe it to the difference between a BB and HR, or to insufficient attention while writing A.R.

I will point out that FED recently (2 years ago?) changed their ruling on the "home run, BR passes R1 for the third out" play. They used to agree with OBR and NCAA. Now, they view all "awards" as items that cannot be taken away by the actions of a trailing runner.

So. on the OP, i'd have a different ruling under FED and NCAA /OBR games.

I think it makes just as much sense to ascribe it to the difference between a BB and HR, or to insufficient attention while writing A.R.

Possibly, but the BB and HR examples are both bases-loaded awards to the batter, while the BB put out versus the HR declared out is a concrete difference.

What we need is an OBR case play in which BR passes R1 on a bases-loaded walk.

Other concrete differences:
The home run is a dead ball award, while the walk is live ball.
The home run is a multi base award (all runners are awarded home), while the walk is one base only.

Besides those concrete difference, note that during a dead ball award a put out is not possible, while during a walk award, by far the most likely scenario involves a put out - it is highly improbable that one base runner will pass another.
Since the two approved rulings involve specific examples, which need to be plausible, we should expect them to differ in the details of how outs are made.

Besides those concrete difference, note that during a dead ball award a put out is not possible, while during a walk award, by far the most likely scenario involves a put out - it is highly improbable that one base runner will pass another.

Can't disagree there. It's difficult to imagine a passed runner during a walk award.

I once did have R2 pass R3 during a dead ball award after a throw into DBT. Further, the passing caused the third out, so R3's run did not count. (This was not a force at home; if it had been . . . treat it like BR passing R1 on the home run?)