AT WHAT POINT DOES A NEW INNING START?

[wpiced]

Last night I umpired a PONY league game of 11-12 year olds. Great kids, but coachs are competative. Two hours or seven innings. Game started at 6:05PM and at 8:00PM six innings were completed. My understanding is that if an inning can be started within the two hours of playing time, it can be completed as long as day light holds out. I told both managers that there was five minutes left. They wanted to start the seventh inning. The visiting team put a batter on deck at 8:03 and the home team went out to their field positions, but the pitcher had not warmed up--not one throw to the plate and the fielders were throwing the warm up balls around the outfield and infield. By now, it was 8:08 and I called the game for the two hour limitation.

The visiting coach (he was down two runs) came unglued because he said the inning was considered started. He didn't have a rule but knew he was right. I told him that I thought the inning started when I pointed at the pitcher and put the ball in play. The controversy is going to the league's board as a protest. Did I screw up?

I can't find a rule cite but it has been custom that an inning begins at the third out of the previous half inning. The question to you would be why didn't the pitcher come out to warm up in a timely fashion? If it was a time wasting act you could have let the game go on, warn the manager to get the pitcher going or you would forfet the game for delay tactics. I assure you a threat of losing for delay would get you a pitcher in a hurry.

[brandda]

This type of situation is usually handled in local ground rules and by local policies rather than by general baseball rules. Our rule is similar to yours in that we cannot "start an inning" after a certain time limit.

Basically, you cannot in good faith penalize the visiting team because the home team procrastinated. My feeling is that once you make the decision and say you are going to play the seventh, then you have to play it regardless of the behavior of the teams.

BTW - I think there is a sportsmanship issue here that ought to come up during the protest regarding the home team coaches' behavior. This sounds pretty bush league to me.

[brandda]

One more point to make. In our league, the teams only have 60 seconds between innings to do whatever warmups they want to do. If they are dawdling, just call balls in, put a batter in the box and direct the pitcher to pitch. If he won't pitch then that is a balk (illegal pitch at 12s) which goes as a ball. That will also get their attention.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by Michael Taylor
I can't find a rule cite but it has been custom that an inning begins at the third out of the previous half inning. The question to you would be why didn't the pitcher come out to warm up in a timely fashion? If it was a time wasting act you could have let the game go on, warn the manager to get the pitcher going or you would forfet the game for delay tactics. I assure you a threat of losing for delay would get you a pitcher in a hurry.

That's pretty much how I call it too, Michael.
If I haven't called clock time on them before the inning ends, then the next inning has started---even if it's past clock time when the first pitch of the next inning is thrown.


Freix

[Rich Ives]

OBR-based LL actually codified, in 2.00 INNING, that an inning starts when the third out of the previous is recorded.

OBR-based PONY rules are full of "No inning may start . . " rules with no definition of start.

The closest you can get in OBR is:

"5.07 When three offensive players are legally put out, that team takes the field and the opposing team becomes the offensive team."

Then infer from that that if the teams are changing sides, the inning must be over, and if it's over, the next one must have started.

[wpiced]

Thank you gentlemen. You have made it clear enough that I can avoid this controversy in the future. If I have five minutes of game time left at the bottom of the sixth inning, i.e. 7:55PM, I'm going to check the ball, clean the plate, and discuss a personnel change with the score keeper before the third out. It doesn't make sense to me to allow the game to start within three to five minutes of the two hour limit then call it for insufficient light in the next 10 to 15 minutes. The same thinking would apply on a Saturday game when two teams and all their parents arrive 30 minutes early only to find that the current game is going to start a new inning with five minutes left in the playing period.

Am I just overly concerned about nothing or is this part of an umpire's game control?

[brandda]

I would be really careful about this. We had an umpire who got in a lot of trouble for taking this approach. The problem is that if the rules say you can start an inning because of time/light/whatever you are penalizing the team who is behind at the time you call it. Think about it, you might get 6 outs on 6 pitches.

When this happened to us (and it was worse in our case because the umpire's son was on the team that was ahead when he called it) I would say always start the inning and if conditions become unplayable, you call the game and revert to the score at the last completed inning.

I would never presumptively call a game based on what I "think" was going to happen unless both coaches are in agreement. That will definitely get you a protest.

[ENelson]

When people who make up rules to accomodate their level should understand there is a dominoe theory to consider. When adopting the time limit it should also state that the new inning starts at the time of the 3rd out. This is what many of the organizations have adopted. The thing is Professional, College, High School, and youth organizations that have published rule books do not use a time limit. Then you try to use existing rules to for a solution.

It is not there. It should not be there because in a non-time limit game the inning is complete when the defensive teams infield leaves the field.

For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has "left the field" when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or clubhouse. If two runners arrive at home base about the same time and the first runner misses home plate but a second runner legally touches the plate, the runner is tagged out on his attempt to come back and touch the base or is called out, on appeal, then he shall be considered as having been put out before the second runner scored and being the third out. Second runner's run shall not count, as provided in Rule 7.12. If a pitcher balks when making an appeal, such act shall be a play. An appeal should be clearly intended as an appeal, either by a verbal request by the player or an act that unmistakably indicates an appeal to the umpire. A player, inadvertently stepping on the base with a ball in his hand, would not constitute an appeal. Time is not out when an appeal is being made.

[brandda]

?

I was with you right up to the word "clubhouse". Not sure how the rest of your posr relates.

As stated, this is a function of local ground rules. I am simply trying to provide guidelines of how to stay out of trouble.

[soonerfan]

Originally posted by wpiced
Last night I umpired a PONY league game of 11-12 year olds. Great kids, but coachs are competative. Two hours or seven innings. Game started at 6:05PM and at 8:00PM six innings were completed. My understanding is that if an inning can be started within the two hours of playing time, it can be completed as long as day light holds out. I told both managers that there was five minutes left. They wanted to start the seventh inning. The visiting team put a batter on deck at 8:03 and the home team went out to their field positions, but the pitcher had not warmed up--not one throw to the plate and the fielders were throwing the warm up balls around the outfield and infield. By now, it was 8:08 and I called the game for the two hour limitation.

The visiting coach (he was down two runs) came unglued because he said the inning was considered started. He didn't have a rule but knew he was right. I told him that I thought the inning started when I pointed at the pitcher and put the ball in play. The controversy is going to the league's board as a protest. Did I screw up?

The way the game was meant to be was when the last out is made in an inning, the defense is on the top steps of the dugout running out there to play the next inning. That inning has begun. The only reason there is any time in between is to allow the pitcher to loosen back up. The LL game is slow sice kids forget where their glove is, what position they were playing, coach is moving his defence around...you name it. What a mess sometimes! However, you were in the top of 7 at out 3 of 6. I got really good at this rule as a college kid umping little league in the summer for gas money. Living in OK umping in mid-summer in all that gear? I knew the game time and the inning start. JOHN

[bluezebra]

A new inning starts the instant the third out is made. This is at ALL levels of baseball and softball' The PU makes the ball "live" when the "Play Ball" signal is given.

Bob

[Gee]

"SNIP"

"A new inning starts the instant the third out is made. This is at ALL levels of baseball and softball' The PU makes the ball "live" when the "Play Ball" signal is given."

<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Hey Blue B, don't underestimate that little white pellet. It doesn't die when the inning is over unless the last out was made on a foul ball third strike bunt attempt.

There is no need to put the ball in play at the start of any inning except the first, even after the game is "over", it lives forever. G.

[Marty Rogers]

There is no need to put the ball in play at the start of any inning except the first...

Gee:
Rule 2.00 "PLAY" is the umpire's order to start
the game or to resume action following any
dead ball.

Switching up, fielders warming up, pitcher throwing
five warmup pitches, me brushing the plate, all happen during dead ball time, at least in my games. I have
been training the pitchers NOT to throw that first pitch
(of each inning) until I point and say PLAY.

This is also important after a TIME OUT, or other significant dead ball time. PU pointing for PLAY let's everyone know ball is now live (especially the BU). How many time do you see a pick off play attempt before PU has pointed TIME? If you use this mechanic properly and consistantly it makes for a smooth game, as your partner always knows if the ball is live or not. Cuts way down on
coaches squwaking, too.

[Gee]

I totally agree with OBR #2 PLAY. I totally agree that the ball must be put back in play every time it has become DEAD.

My point is that the ball does not become dead at the end of an inning, it stays (a)live and therefore does not have to be put back in play to start the next inning. There are no runners on base to pickoff and there is no reason the ball should be dead before you start an ongoing inning.

If you want to teach your pitchers not to throw before you point, just put your hand up, which makes the ball dead, and then point. We must conserve our strength. G.