|
before we start (an equal opportunity post...)
posted this on another site, but thought i'd throw it up here for those that don't do both...
the following took place at a legion state tourney game. game one of three game set of first round in playoffs. 3 man crew. i ask to work 1B cuz i have an indy ball plate job the next night. assignor says no prob as he would prefer i be out on the bags to kinda direct traffic due to the lack of three man experience of the guys i am working with. i know the PU well. VP of my local association. the guy working 3B is fairly young, mid 20's i'd say. i've heard of him, but never met him. so we head out to the field for the plate meeting, and everything is kosher. PU goes over his stuff, then asks if i have anything to add. i say, "yep. keep everyone and everything inside the dugouts, please. those guys sitting on the buckets gotta move back so their feet are inside." (the dugouts at this field sit at ground level. they are about 30 feet long, with about a 10 foot wide opening in the front for player access.) both managers say no problem and we break the meeting. i head down the 1B line and out to short right. when i head to my starting position for the beginning of the game i notice that all three adult coaches on my side of the field are outside the dugout. i wait to see if they are headed inside, but they aren't. the PU points down to me to see if i'm ready (which i HATE, but that's another story for another day) and i hold my hand up to him shaking my head. he steps out and looks quizzically at me. i point to the coaches outside the dugout. he looks over and tells them they need to be inside. skipper apparently doesn't hear him, cuz he says, "what?" and starts walking out toward me. he asks, "can i have time?" (game hasn't even started yet... :rolleyes: ) he walks out to me and says they have been outside all year and nobody has said anything. i inform him that i'm not overly interested in the rest of the year, and for this game everyone is going to be inside the dugout. he continues to argue with me about it and says that the district supervisor has been at most of their games this year and has made the players stay inside, but has never said anything about the coaches. my response to that was that i had spoken with him about the need to keep everyone inside, and he agreed with me. (i DID actually talk to him, though it was at the high school state tourney where the same guy was the TD.) he asks me the guys name cuz he thinks i'm making crap up or something, and i told him. he's agitated, but he now retreats. however, instead of going back to his dugout, he goes back to talk to the PU for a minute. i head back over to my starting position. their meeting breaks up and he heads back over to the dugout. he sends his two coaches inside, but he stays out. PU points down to me again, and i again hold my hand up and shake my head. PU looks over at the dugout, then motions for me to come talk to him. i walk down and he says, "i told him that one guy could stay outside." what do you do? i'll tell you what i did later. |
Hmm, eject head coach for showing me up, problem solved. Have a very one-sided discussion with partner after game?
|
What do I do? I probably grimace inside and yield to my respected PU/association VP's judgment. And be ready to call any interference or obstruction that might occur on a play during the game. And yes, I discuss it with PU after the game. YMMV.
But I wouldn't have insisted on this point in the first place, especially without talking with my crewmates first. Even at this legion state tourney level. I know many umps on this site whose opinions I respect feel pretty strongly about coaches on buckets. Not a battle I feel worth fighting, and it may border on sweating small stuff. In my area and level, it's a customary perk for my mostly volunteer coaches that would be rude to refuse. In my modest experience (400-500 games), I remember only one wayward coach who affected a play. Doofus defensive coach, who had wandered away from the usual bucket position halfway up the line, was hit by an overthrow at third. I called obstruction, awarded the runner home, with no complaint. |
Crew Chief????
Maybe I'm reading into the beginning of the post, but to me, you're the crew chief.
When you're partner called you over, and told you HE said one coach could stay outside, that needs to be addressed in two ways: Tell the PU that the coach doesn't get to take a survey of the crew, and then have the coach go inside with his staff. No doubt the coach will eject himself, play on. AR |
Quote:
If skip wants to get in partner's face, well partner deserves that and can eject skip himself. If partner won't go, I'll eject him right now; but partner probably wont' like that. Once we've said everyone's in the dugout (at the frickin plate meeting no less!), everyone better be in the dugout. |
Bobby,
I'd have simply told my partner that I'd already told the manager that we wouldn't allow anyone out of the dugouts, and strongly suggest to him that he now go tell the manager that he didn't realize I'd told him this already, and we're not going to discuss it further. He's shooting you in the foot if he doesn't agree to back you here. And truth be told, if it were me and he didn't have my back on this, the game would now be worked as a two man............ Tim. |
During this brief meeting with PU, I would ask him, "are you sure this is how you want to handle this"?? If his answer is yes I take several deep breaths and go back to first, finish the game, and then after the game advise partner that I would not be working with him again. Also would submit a report to head assignor, also advising him of not having this subject as a partner again. Hopefully he will learn something, but if not, I would hope to at least say I kept my composure and handled my end of it professionally.
(If he ever would apologize and I thought he truly understood what he did, I would work with him later) |
Quote:
the buckets were outside the opposite dugout, and players were sitting on them. they were moved back inside as soon as the plate meeting ended. the issue i was trying to deal with was all three of the adult coaches on my side of the field were standing outside of (and not barely outside...waaaay outside) the dugout and milling around. |
I don't have a problem with coaches on buckets in general. I do have a problem with coaches that don't follow my simple instructions. I also have a problem with a partner who doesn't feel the need to back me up when I've instructed said coaches to get in the dugout. I would have probably told the coach to get it in the dugout or start heading for the bus.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
NO BUCKETS...period. If your tired..pull up some pine.
They (coaches) will be allowed outside of the dugout....not roaming...but outside none the less. griff |
Quote:
|
Quote:
I'm not one to worry about what my assignor might think about something like this, Luke. Tim. |
~Sigh~
Quote:
I would walk into the the PU and say: "Hey Mark, how long have we known each other? Mark: "Mmmm, 10 Years?" Mr. A: "OK, let me get this straight you have just told this coach it was OK for him to be outside the dugout AFTER I told him he couldn't be out, right? Mark: "Yep!" Mr. A: "So not only are you going to over rule me and set aside a rule you have decided that our friendship can 'just end' right now and right here, right"? Mark: "Well I told him it was OK . . . " Mr. A: "OK, you have a choice right now: 1) tell him to get into the dugout or 2) I will not only leave this game right now and go home and leave you and your partner to do the game AND I will never work with you again or speak to you again. YOU MAKE THE CALL. Perhaps this will be easy for him maybe he would rather NOT work with me again. I am with BigUmp . . . my ball and I am going home. Regards, |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Thank you, Bob |
nO. iF yoU doN't lIke It, don'T Read iT.
|
bobby,
I was taught that at the plate conference, the PU/UIC does all the talking. His partners confine themselves to introducing themselves and, after the PU has finished coverng ground rules, saying "No" when he asks them if they have any questions. So, that's pretty much what I do. I'm curious why you didn't just bring this up with the PU prior to the coaches arriving at the plate for the plate conference and asking him to address it with them. Seems like a lot of this unpleasantness, unnecessary delay, and damage to the credibility of the crew's authority could have been avoided if you had. Perhaps you didn't notice the buckets and coaches out of the dugout prior to the plate conference, maybe they waited to come out until you were already engaged in the conference, maybe your practice is different. For whatever reason, you find yourself in the situation where your partner has contradicted your legitimate instruction to the coach. I think I would have gone to talk to my partner and asked him if he recalled the instruction given during the plate conference and if he realized I had just instructed the coach to get in the dugout. Then, I'd try to convince my partner that we needed to be on the same page and that the best page would be to get the coaches in the dugout like they're supposed to be by rule. If he found me unpersuasive, I would drop it and take it up with the assignor after the game. JM |
Quote:
|
it's not my job to point out everything that should be covered in the plate meeting prior to said meeting. if he doesn't cover something and then asks if i have anything to add, you can be damn sure i'm gonna add it if it is relevant, and especially if it is ground rules related. that point is moot, though, as the plate meeting was not the issue. he asked me, i said yes, then added what i added. everyone was cordial and said, "no problem." the issue arose post plate meeting when the coaches were hanging out outside. the "shut up and stand there" routine that i've seen posted on here is fine for the most part. however, if it is ground rules related, you'd better pipe up if you do have something to add.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Around here the dugouts are ground level and enclosed with chain link.The doorways are small so having the coach outside is a normal thing to allow. From there they can call pitches..put plays on..etc. But NO BUCKETS...... griff |
I guess I should have specified capitalization. Proper capitilazation is the norm. But, you dowhatchalike, as Digital Underground used to say. Just remember how difficult it is to read long paragraphs when the sentences don't begin with capitals.
|
Hmmm...
I would tell my partner that at the home plate conference we said "Everyone and everything inside", and the coaches "had no problems with that". Then YOU changed things after the fact. Well, big boy, you're the UIC, but be aware that Legion ball plays OBR with only a few exceptions, and NONE of those exceptions are allowing people out of the dugouts who shouldn't BE out of the dugouts. So now you're not only changing what BOTH COACHES agreed to at home plate, you're also making up a rule that you can't back up using the rules we're playing by. Unfortunately, that sets a precedent for not only the other team, but for the rest of the games being played in this tournament. Are you sure you want to do this? Oh, I will also be filing a formal report with the appropriate commissioner. Your call. JJ |
You explained to the coach that he was to stay inside the dugout. He not only tried to overrule you, but created a dispute between you and your partner. I would have no problem ejecting him for his antics. After the game I would hope you chewed the hell out of your "partner" and made sure you 1) Never work with him and 2) Never assign him to any games you cover.
|
First, I would eject the coach for being an a$$hole. Then I would tell my ex-friend at the plate to have a nice day. Once I leave, I don't care if the coach comes back on the field either.
|
Having had similar situations in the past, my answer is simple.
The coach will be following my instructions since they were issued first. I will do my best to deliver this message in a way that salvages any precious male egos that may be offended. Somebody will have been trying to show me up. It doesn't matter who. But I will stand my ground. It's been my experience that the whole game goes a whole lot better if I do. Rita |
If they have been told to stay in the dugout at plate meeting I don't wait for my partner to point at me, if they are out of dugout. They get in the dugout without a conversation with partner. Conversation with manager will be short.
|
Quote:
What did you do Thanks Pete Booth |
allllrighty then. what i did isn't overly exciting, i just wanted to have people comment on and discuss the situation as they would have handled it, rather than on how i handled it. that being said, after he told me what he had said to the coach i simply turned and walked back to my starting position. there was nothing else to be said, in my opinion, as he had just cut my legs out from under me. doing anything else at this point would have resulted in an argument between me and my partner right there on the field, and that is not something that i am interested in.
after the game when we were in the parking lot... i waited to see if he would bring it up instead of just starting in on him, as i likely would have bitten his head off and i was trying to remain calm. he did finally bring it up. after we discussed it a bit he said that it kinda caught him off guard when the guy came to him and he didn't want to get caught in the middle of the battle, so he just compromised. i told him that that was unacceptable by me because he had heard what i said both at the plate meeting and in my discussion with the coach. we continued to discuss it and decided that what it came down to was another example of the lack of proper training in our area. different guys enforce different things. nothing is universal. as i said in the OP, this guy is my association's VP. we brainstormed ideas on how to effectively deal with the situation so the whole group can benefit from it. |
My God! That sounds.......
reasonable. |
Bobby,
Just wondering if the thought of addressing him as he walked to your partner entered your mind? I probably would have addressed the situation when he turned and headed to my partner and said "Skip, no reason to be going to him he is just going to reinterate what you have already been told, and that is everyone is in the dugouts including coaches, as was discussed at the plate meeting!" Now if he heads to my partner and gets a different answer then there are bigger problem's...At least addressing it like this gives your partner a better heads up as to what is coming his way. I am also wondering what was discussed in the pregame concerning this? |
i see where you're coming from, but, i had walked down to about the 45' line to have this discussion. when we finished, i turned and walked back to my starting position thinking that all was well and good. when i got there i turned around and faced the plate and that is when i noticed the conversation going on. i could have walked backwards to my position, monitoring him like a hawk...but, like i said, i thought all was well and good. had i known, or had any inkling, that he was headed to the PU to make an appeal, you bet your behind i would have been on his heels.
there was nothing discussed in the pregame about this. it came up at the plate meeting because there were kids sitting on buckets in front of the dugout. our pregame conversation was mostly about 3 man mechanics and coverages as i was the only one on the crew with any experience. |
I don't get it what's the big deal.... your buddy Mr. I'm to scared to umpire is NOT going to enforce that rule again..... SO you the guy THE Only guy who sticks to the rules.... and actually tells the coaches to do that.
Everyone else does not care!!!! so you might want to start with your other Umpire buddies first rather than changing the world in this 1 game. |
Yikes.
The big deal is that he told the managers what was expected with respect to being outside the dugouts. When a manager complained to his partner, his partner agreed to ignore what bobby had just (correctly) instructed the manager to do. If you don't care about people hanging around outside the dugouts in your game that's fine. The fact is, they don't belong on the field. But where the coaches are is not as big a deal in this story as is the fact that bobby's partner threw him under the bus. If we ignored rules because "no one else cares about that" we would have many more problems than we already have every game. |
~Cripes~
oyaisee's signiture:
Quote:
Regards, |
If you are going to delete my post you need to delete the post slamming me for my signature!!!!!!!!!!!!
Come on.... that's b/s |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Wow, I thought all this time that the "it's for the kids" signature was just being sarcastic. I never dreamed he really meant it. Go figure.
|
Quote:
And, I did delete post(s) slamming you. |
i thought his sig was referring to the hudsucker proxy.
|
Quote:
|
.....meh....
Quote:
When he (your [ex?] partner) admitted to throwing you under the bus, I would have immediately discussed with him alone the fact that we may not always like ALL of the rules we are charged with observing but that THIS one in particular has been proscribed by those that make such rules AND he must now advise said rat that this rule will be observed in this game as it is written. Of course the parking lot discussion would encompass etiquette and food chain dynamics.:D |
Little League-type games are supposed to be for the kids' enjoyment, and not so much about the money, coaches, parents, etc. Different baseball leagues have different goals, but I don't think one type of baseball should be considered inferior to any others.
|
Quote:
I do griff |
Quote:
If it's really all about the kids, then the adults around them wouldn't act so much like little kids themselves, and make it all about the kids' enjoyment. That's why high school ball is different. At that level and up, nobody is pretending that it's "all about the kids." Everyone knows that it's serious business and that winning is the key thing. To quote the late, great Vince Lombardi, winning isn't everything...it's the only thing. |
Quote:
As my son got into HS ball, I found that I still had to watch from the outfield as these nut case parents were now watching their kids compete in HS ball! My only salvation was that a lot of my old "outfield acquaintances" still were with me at this level. |
In some games I call....
and there is a particularly obnoxious parent, usually a mother, in the stands and a kid reacts or looks and I can tell the batter or catcher (if I am working the plate) or fielder (if I am in the field) is related. I will casually ask if there is a relation ("Is that your mom/dad?") and if they reply affirmatively, I respond with; "Do you want me to throw them out?" This is more fun with the 13/14 year olds (the parents are usually more obnoxious and vocal at those ages) and the players more gullible. They usually ask me "Will you? or Can you?".
|
Quote:
A player from the visiting team asks me "Did that coach get ejected?" I told the player that the coach had been ejected and we'll get going again in just a second. The player then looks at the ground and says in a quiet voice "That's my dad. He's done this before." I'll never forget the look on that kid's face and the embarassment in his voice. |
If you really want the kids to have fun, tell the parents to pick up the kids after the game.
Oh if I were King..... griff |
Quote:
|
So back to oyaissee's signature, it's not the sentiment he expressed that is the problem, it's the hypocrisy so many parents show.
|
No..... That's not it at all.... I can tell by the arrogance displayed by post after post on here..... Lot's of "Umpires" think they are bigger than the game.... I just think one needs to re-evaluate just what they are doing..... and why!
It's a new game... with new characters..... and lots of "umpires" that are stuck in the past..... where Wally and the Beaver lived...... |
~Sigh~
Quote:
I umpire for power and money. I have said that over and over. I do not, nor have I ever, umpired "for the kids." I umpire for the game. Umpires, in my neck of the woods, attempt to make sure there is simply a level playing field for all participants. And if players and coaches didn't lie and cheat you wouldn't even need officials. Now I have no idea what you mean when you say it is a: 'new game . . . with new characters' . . . last I looked there were still nine (or ten) players for each team on a diamond with 90' bases and a pitcher's plate 60' 6" from home plate. There seems to be a whole lot of very fine umpires here that think it is you that may be in the wrong. If you want to join in with Canadaump6 and hold hands and give group hugs that is fine FOR YOU. For me I will stick with the game as it has always been played. Regards, |
Everyone has a different reason why they gear up.
My mission is to make my local LL the best possible. As UIC, it's my job to see the umpires, administrators AND coaches are as educated and skilled as I can make them. Through rules knowledge and situational awareness, I can prepare the league for game days to the best of my ability. We're not a big league, but we have won a lot of titles lately. We won the consolation game against the Japanese in 2005, and a state title in 2007. We're now competitive at every level. I've sent a bunch of kids, for free, to the one week school in San Bernadino. I turn away umpires, and send them to other leagues. I put four man, volunteer crews on regular season games. I put a TON of my umpires in post season games. (That was my mission for this past season). So, did I do it for the kids? Partly. But mostly for the local league and myself. I take a lot of pride in what we've done over the past few years. Back to the OP (imagine that!). I'd get the bucket sitter in the dugout, and have a short conversation with my partner. I'm a pretty forceful fellow when I need to be, and this wouldn't be a problem. |
Quote:
What do you think you know about anyone on this or any other board? I have a feeling the answer is the same for both questions - nothing. |
SanDiegoSteve.....
Quote:
CUMBUYA.....and I'll get the marshmallows from Mrs. Cleaver......this is gonna be swell! griff |
Quote:
|
Hehehehe
Quote:
At my place in life money is really more of a function of score keeping rather than value. While umpiring may not "pay that much" it does allow me to buy items that otherwise might not be of a high enough 'need' to be purchased: Say a second plasma flat screen for my bedroom. Is it 'needed', obviously not, but when purchased with "mad money" it is a simple decision to make. Regards, |
Why do I umpire?
Quote:
|
The best quote I ever read on this is:
Quote:
|
Quote:
I pretty much get mugged as soon as I walk in the door. Now that my wife has figured out how to use Arbiter she sees how much I'll be making and makes plans for that cash as soon as the game is assigned. :D But seriously, I too do it for my love of the game and my passion for umpiring. I wouldn't do it for free, god bless those who do, but I'd never get in a situation where I found myself depending on my umpiring income. Once you depend on it for the money it becomes a job, I already have one of those; this is my hobby. I think of it like fishing or any other hobby while there's some work involved the intrinsic reward is so much greater. |
No, she does not.....
Quote:
|
Well, I make enough to buy new gear and uniforms when I need them with a little left over, so that's enough for me.
But mainly I do it because I'm pretty good at it (I think;)), I want to get better, and I have a lot of fun. |
hmmm...
I got into it because I couldn't stand idly by while 'daddy umps' (untaught, unskilled, biased, mal-equipped spectators coerced into officiating because no one else will do it) butchered the game.
I remain in it because 'the game' has given me a view otherwise unavailable, the mad money which pays for petrol, gear and other tools of the trade, power ( I have a voice in decision making now) and additional credibility my training and experience level affords me. Take away the mad money and I would probably do much fewer games. FWIW |
Quote:
Example: We all live in different parts of the country but here in NY we get $60.00 game on average to do a 7 inning game Let's say you have a double dip which I believe most of get each and every weekend even during Fall ball. Yes you have those marathons sometimes but by and large the games average between 2 2:15 with a 20 minute change-over So for 5 hours you receive $120.00 or whatever the rate is in your area. $120/5 = $24/hour. Not bad for a "part-time' job. Pete Booth |
Quote:
|
| All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:29pm. |