Does the run count?
 

The following play was posted in the Softball Umpiring Discussion Forum on the NFHS website. I would like to entertain baseball rulings from NFHS, NCAA, and OBR/MBL (including IBF rules).


Bases loaded with two (2) outs when B4 draws a walk. R1 saunters down the base path from third base towards home plate. R2 runs from second base, tags third base, and makes the turn at third base and takes a few steps toward home plate. F2, who still has not thrown the ball back to F1 sees that R2 has rounded third base and fires the ball to F5 who tags R2 before R2 can return to third base. F5 tag of R2 occurs before R1 has touched home plate.

Assuming that R1 does touch home plate, does the run count.


It is my humble opinion that R1's run counts.


MTD, Sr.

agreed. Walk entitles BR to 1B and forces everyone else to advance one base without liability to be put out. R2's out after rounding 3B doesn't rescind the award of home to R3. It isn't a force play on a live ball, it is an award situation.

Run counts
 

Mark,

As I am sure you know, a walk is an award, and all baserunners are awarded the next base. Therefore, the run counts even if R2 does something stupid to get thrown out before R3 scores.

This is not a time or force play because the bases are awarded.

I dunno guys. The inning ends when there are 3 outs, and the 3rd out occurred before the runner crossed home plate.

The run counts

-Josh

In OBR, the run counts if a runner is put out after overrunning a base, even if the out comes before the runner from 3B tags home. A declared out is a different matter. If the BR rounded 1B and passed the runner on 1B before the runner from 3B touched the plate, the run would not score.

I'm not sure about Fed or NCAA, but the answer is probably in the BRD.

I believe that when the run is the winning run, only the runner from 3B and the BR must touch.

The OP question came up this year in NCAA softball. Same ruling as OBR.

I admit that I'm not sure of the following:

Bases loaded, 2 out, ball 4 gets away from F2. R3 scores, R2 misses 3B and also scores. Defense appeals R2's miss of 3B. I think that, since it's a force out, that out would nullify both runs, regardless of the award on the base on balls.

This example sounds like a test question...this example is in the PBUC (I think)...I know I've read it somewhere...and if my memory serves me right...the run counts.

The specific wording allowing a run is in OBR under "how a run scores" -- one of the comments.

it's not a force out. force = runner forced to advance by means of batter becoming a runner. while it is true that the batter became a runner, the other runners were "forced" to advance because of an award.

Actually, found the comment elsewhere: 7.04(b). The run scores.

It seems to me that this applies as long as the runners touch their awarded advance base; runs could still be nullified by an appealed miss of a base.

Andrew

it's not a force out.

The fact that the base is awarded does not remove the force.

Run scores kid. This is not a timing play, but a base award for the runners and batter.

Cesna Citation?
 

I heard this recently on another thread and stated that it was another baseball myth. Then I began to question my own acumen. Why do so many people want to believe this is true and where did it come from?

First off, I agree the run counts.


However, this play has always confused me. Contrast with this play: Bases loaded, 2 outs, Home run, the BR passes R1 before R3 touches home - this is a time play and no runs score (even though everyone was awarded home).

Can someone tell me the difference here please?

the homerun is not an automatic award. the base on balls is and award of first base and an additional base to those forced to advance. a home run is a free pass to advance and touch all four bases...therefore all baserunning rules apply...that's my thought...other thoughts?

However, this play has always confused me. Contrast with this play: Bases loaded, 2 outs, Home run, the BR passes R1 before R3 touches home - this is a time play and no runs score (even though everyone was awarded home).

Can someone tell me the difference here please?

The difference is declared out versus put out.

the homerun is not an automatic award.

It is a four-base award.

Since it is right there in the rule book, why don't I just post the ruling and make it easy on everybody:

Rule 7.04(b) Comment: A runner forced to advance without liability to be put out may advance past the base to which he is entitled only at his peril. If such a runner, forced to advance, is put out for the third out before a preceding runner, also forced to advance, touches home plate, the run shall score.

Play. Two out, bases full, batter walks but runner from second is overzealous and runs past third base toward home and is tagged out on a throw by the catcher. Even though two are out, the run would score on the theory that the run was forced home by the base on balls and that all the runners needed to do was proceed and touch the next base.

I Dunno guys
 

I'll be nice....I'll be nice....I'll be nice.....:rolleyes:

It's not working...so...ah hell never mind

Since it is right there in the rule book, why don't I just post the ruling and make it easy on everybody:

Thank you, Steve. Good idea.

Keep in mind that if R3 (before scoring) interfered with F2's throw to third, R3 would be out and his run would not score. Or if an overzealous R1 passed R2 before R3 scored, the run would also not count.

The runs (other than BR who made the third out), do count in FED.

Similar play that actually happened. Bottom of the 9th, 2 out bases loaded. Batter takes ball four, then takes a few steps towards the dugout thinking the game is over. Home plate umpire tells him "touch first base" so the batter goes and touches first, and the game ends. Could this game have been protested?

HUH? Why make this game any harder than it is? He is entitled to the base he is awarded. If you have to grab him by the ear..he is still gets the award.

griff

You can protest anything you want...you won't win everytime that's for sure...they may even say "hey, you can't protest that..." but you can always ask.

I think they call that preventative umpiring.

No you can't protest anything you want. Judgement calls come to mind. Fair/foul...ball/strike... etc.

A misapplication of a rule...yes.

griff

correct...but they can "protest" and as I said above...I would simply say, "you can't protest that"

Tomato.. Tamoto.. I get it..my bad:o

griff

I think the confusion may center around what we consider a 'protest'. To me, that is a formal process where a team asks to have a missapplication of a rule reversed. Some may think that a coach who comes out to discuss a call is 'protesting' , but not in the formal sense.

Now, the thought that someone could protest 'anything they want' really depends on the body that is accepting and ruling on the 'protest'. When I worked in LL, a game I worked was 'protested' because the house rules stated that no inning shall start after 7pm. The visiting team manager protested that I started the bottom of the 6th inning after 7 PM. The protest was upheld, because "I did not accurately determine what the correct time was" (per BOD, I should have checked with both managers to determine the 'correct' time). So the bottom of the 6th was wiped off the books, and the game stood as a tie.

This was one of my last LL games I worked for this particular league.

Huh? An Inning includes both the top and the botom of the inning. So, unles you started the TOP of the inning after 7:00, the protest should have been disallowed. (Unless, of course, the local rule was "no half-inning shall start...")

Perhaps that is why that was one of his last games with that league. I wouldn't put up with such shenanagins either.

Whenever I worked a "no new inning after..." league, I checked my own timepiece in my pocket or that of the official scorekeeper, and if it was close to stopping time I would announce the time so there was no questioning the legality of continuation.

I would never consider consulting with any coaches or managers to determine the correct time. That would be like asking each manager whether the runner was safe or out :rolleyes: .

The point of my post was to agree with the argument that 'they can protest anything they want'. In this case the protest committee decided to hear the protest and rule on it. In MOST cases, those protests are never even accepted. The actual situation that precipitated the protest was not important.

When I was training new umpires my advice to them was to never argue with a coach if they wanted to play the game "under protest", just note it in the book and play on. We don't rule on the validity of protest, and if the protest "committee" wants to hear it, thats their business.

If you allow a rat to protest a judgment call, the rat for the other team could file a counter-protest for violating the rule that you can only protest a rules violation.

And we then refer both protests to the proper league officials to be ruled upon. Like RPatrino said, they have a right to ask for a protest, and the league has the right to tell them to take their protest and jump in the lake. :D

It would seem that RPatrino understands why protests exist.

JM

But................
 

If the protest is filed before R3 scores, does the run count?;)

AR

I want to protest...no..double dog protest..this protest:confused:

griff

Gentlemen, gentlemen. I don't care about protests. Let us get back on point. DOES THE RUN COUNT?

MTD, Sr.

I believe the OP was put to rest completely with post # 17 on page 2. The thread topic had fully run its course at that time. The rest of the thread is just a bonus discussion, kind of like "extra credit" on a school exam.

Down here in NC for USSSA, all games are under 2 hour time limit (no inning after 2:00).

At the plate conference, I show them both me starting the stop watch, and tell them that is the official one.

Of course, they both look at their watches and think THAT is the official one.

So, when it comes down to seconds either way, at the end of an inning, I will pull it out and STOP it, whether it is over or under, and so when they start *****ing that their watch says one thing, I have my stop watch in hand with the time that that inning ended in order to prove to them (and squash any following protest), either the game is over or there was time left on the clock.