Let their mistakes work for you
 

There has been a lot of discussions going on about how bad the LL and MLB guys are. With TV the way it is today, we are going to see a lot more calls that are questionable. So instead of b*tchin and moanin, use those mistakes to make yourself better. Ask yourself "Why did he miss that call," or "what would I do in that same situation?" I'm sure after reviewing mistakes that are made, they try to figure out what went wrong. Put your jealosy and envy aside. And believe me, when it comes down to it, you're not as good as you think you are. I include myself in that assesment as well. I would love to tape one of you "they suck" guys and show you your many flaws. It's easy being the best and all knowing umpire when it comes to the internet.

Hmmm,
 

And the purpose of this post is . . . ?

Regards,

Please see title...

Hmmm,
 

Please see my original post.

Just venting a little I guess, Tim. Helps me keep my perspective.

Take it for what it's worth. Thought I might be able to drum up some constructive dialog.

I guess it was to tell us how much we really suck, when we really don't suck, I dunno.

It ain't so easy being the best all knowing and seeing umpires on the internet. It's a hard job, but somebody has to do it!;)

Tee,

I think the original poster's point was that we should try and learn from the mistakes we see televised umpires make, so that we don't make these mistakes ourselves. It's a good idea, but a lot of the mistakes these guys make are mechanical, and most of us already know the correct mechanic.

Out of curiousity Tee, how good are you (strikezone, game management, judgment calls, mechanics, rules knowledge, etc)?

Enough better than you to where you should take his advice and thank him every time he gives it to you.

I agree with learning from MY MISTAKES and others. I have never had an evaluation that was perfect. With as many 2 and 3 man camps I have been to I still have never worked that perfect game. ( always striving for but haven't achieved yet). Umpires should never bash the other brothers that have the BALLS to umpire what ever level they do. So I would say always try and learn from every umpire that you see work or that you work with.We can always find ways to improve our games whether we are seasoned veterans or the newest umpire. Just my thoughts.

canadaump6,

Although I've only seen him work once (HS Varsity, 2-man), I'd have to say he's pretty f#@&in' good.

I think I might actually be a little better on "rules knowledge" than he is, but on all the other things you mention (which are actualy more important in terms of being a good umpire), I would have to say he's in a higher "league" than I.

JMO.

JM

Way to make things confrontational.

He didn't make things confrontational. You asked a question, he answered it (and gave an answer to which I agree).

If it makes you feel better, I gladly take his advice too...

We all make mistakes, we all miss pitches, we all boot a call from time to time. Were human. With time, experience (innings) and training we do this less and less. Unfortunately for those that work at a high enough level that there are t.v. cameras catching every move, when they do make a mistake, it's there for all to see. Personally, it makes me feel good to see the best of the best make a mistake once in a while, it shows there's hope for all of us yet. :D

agreed

I've never seen Tim C. work as we have an entire country between us (I am on the Atlantic Ocean, he is on the Pacific Ocean). However, Tim & I have been discussing umpiring for close to 3 decades. This goes back to the days of Bill Boards and that was before you were on this Earth (You once stated you were 22 or 23?) . We have the same desire to work hard and be the best we can. We both enjoy training new umpires (that are willing to learn) and observe other umpires to aid them in their development. We work on the rules just about every day in one way or another. We are proud of our craft and tough teachers. That is what makes our students the best that they can be.

We both love our Country and do not take too kindly to those who think they know "the real American". Many thought they "knew" us in years gone by - just ask a "son of the rising sun" or a goose stepping madman. They thought they knew the Real American but what they didn't know as well as they thought!

You don't get it...do you (rhetorical)

I don't know Tim from s^*&...but I can bet you he is not a LL umpire, to which you are referencing about umps on TV...

Mechanics are honed over years of umpiring...someday maybe your skills might be as good as Tim's... again, I don't know you either, but I could probably pick out who is who if you both walked on the field together

I have watched him work. You hit the nail on the head.

Canada, I've been around a bit longer then you have, and I still listen intently to what Tee has to say in this forum. I also listen to what you say as well, because I believe everyone has something to offer.

I'm surprised that you would question Tee's qualifications as an umpire, as I am sure you have seen his numerous posts and responses. Did you ask that question to provoke him? Pray tell, not.

I too have been doing this a long time. I would jump at the chance to work with Tim C...and a handful of others on this forum in a heartbeat.....his no nonsense approach is a breath of fresh air in a in a mamby pamby pc world.

I love working with people who challenge me..makes me REALLY think when most just get by.To know my partner is on the same page is always more fun.....

WAIT...what if I fail????? What if the coaches don't like me???Just kidding...that ain't gonna happen......respect is earned..both ways..and it's a great feeling. So is dumping a nig-nog coach.....an altogether different kind of fun....but thats another thread...


griff

Amen, brother Griff!!

I did not ask Tee to provoke him. I was just curious.

IMO Tim has come off as a bit abrasive and sensitive on here...hopefully he doesn't carry that same attitude on the field...I'll never know and I'm okay with that.

there is a point here
 

You know what, I would give my left arm to be on TV, and be evaluated as an umpire by millions of people.

Heck, I would love to be evaluated by somebody. I may get that chance this Fall for the first time in years, to be evaluated by guys who know what is going on, as opposed to some clueless HS coach who doesn't even understand baseball, more or less umpiring.

I think it is great to have people discuss even your misses on a forum like this, because there is a ton of pressure to perform, and as a mentor of mine from years ago said: "Umpiring is one job where you have to be perfect the first day and get better after that."

Frankly, one of the problems a lot of umpires I see have is that they do not react well under pressure, or know how to deal with it. Part of it is they don't ever do games that have a lot of pressure in them, and part of it is they never stress themselves to get better. So when they move up a level, or get into a championship game, they don't know how to handle pressure. They freeze, or choke, and then they get discouraged, or quit.

Good sports officials understand pressure, they learn to love it, and live in it. That is when they are at their best. It is also a reason the best umpires get the best games, they not just know rules and mechanics and the unwritten rules, they know how to deal with a situation where there is a lot riding on this game/moment/call.

And watching the guys on TV, even LL guys in Williamsport is great because you can learn how to react in a pressure situation, or at least see guys perform under pressure. Even when MLB guys make mistakes, it is very instructive to see how they handle things, and how they respond. It is a lot better than most umpires, and it is worth seeing.

[QUOTE]IMO, nothing can be further from the truth.

It is the opposite. Too many posters are sensitiive.

A poster starts an OP by asking for advice or comments on a particular play they had, baseball ruling they are unsure of or dealings with a coach or player.

They in turn receive T's advice/ comment on the situation based upon his experience in dealing with similar situations plus the tone of the OP. It's difficult sometimes to truly understand what a person is getting at without having that face-face discussion.


Tee will provide his commentary and then the poster will disagree with those comments etc. and then say that Tee is abrasive etc.

Therefore, if you do not want an opinion or critique then why bother asking in the first place.

As Ozzy I have never met Tee. I am from the East Coast and Tee is from the Left coast as we say in NY. From all my dealings on the internet with Tee he is a Straight-up guy. I would also like to work with him not only from a learning experience but because I would also have fun.


I learned because I was able to take constructive ctiticism. It's been my experience that when someone says nothing etc. that person does not give a rats you know what about you or could care less if you improve or not.

And No I have not always agreed with Tee but that's what the discussions are all about.

Pete Booth

I'm with Pete Booth. It's others who are sensitive and get their feelings hurt way too easily.

If you get your feelings hurt by written words on an internet forum, what is gonna happen when you have a real live fire breathing, pickled tuna breath, vein popping HS varsity head coach on your ***? Put him on your iggy list??

The difference is that on the field there are times I expect a rat to come out of the hole breathing fire...on an internet discussion forum among adult, umpire colleagues, calling someone and idiot for a perfectly normal post, is not my idea of helping each other out and offering that constructive criticism...many of us in here can take the heat...not the blatant disrespect on an internet forum where umpires young and old come for advice and to discuss issues...

I don't think there is any blatant disrespect here, or maybe I haven't seen it personally. Healthy disagreement and/or passionatly held positions are a good thing to keep this forum alive.

Not when it is delivered in the egocentric, imperious and unprofessional manner in which he often delivers it. He excludes people in order to feel or appear more prominent.

Well, this noble and honorable vocation needs new members. And new members are more likely to appear and be willing to endure the sacrifice and devotion if they are welcomed and not demeaned and shunned. This Tim C. guy is just as glaring a symbol of what is wrong with umpiring as he is a shining example of what is right.

Well, you may as well add me to that list too, then! Nothing is egotistical or offensive unless it is accepted that way. But then, in today's "Oooo, please don't hurt my feelings" society of today, I just don't know anymore! :mad:

Don't worry Ozzy, you are already on that list! :D

Nothing is egotistical or offensive unless it is accepted that way.


You don't really believe that do you?

Absolutely, but unless you are above the age of 50, you wouldn't understand. Those of us raised before the "Me" era learned how to do this because we were direct products of those that lived through a depression. Not many people today could survive that, now could they?

I am as thick-skinned as any person you will ever see or know. I am speaking out principally on behalf of others, as usual. And Tim C.'s approach to umpires and umpiring is egotistical and offensive by normal standards.

And for the record, Ozzy, I find you markedly more real, and your approach easier to digest than the vaunted Tim C. (And that comes from a 50-year-old who was raised by Depression-era folks.)

Everybody was in the same boat during the depression...everybody was poor...you lived through it because you didn't know any other way...doesn't mean you aren't tough as nails by any means...but saying whatever you want to people, then saying well, "I can't help it if you're offended, I say what I want, how you interpret it is your problem"...has nothing to do with the "me" generation...if you're a prick, you're a prick...no matter how old you are...(and I don't know you sir, but in our discussions on here, you seem to be a pretty decent guy)...but I disagree with you when you say that it's all in how somebody chooses to interpret something...you can't totally absolve yourself or anybody else of what you say...simply because you didn't intend for it to offend somebody...certainly we can't and will never please everybody...but people your age also probably know about respecting your elders and my grandparents taught me that if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all...that's coming from a WWII vet, depression surviving, tax paying, father of 8, grandfather of many more,...so I guess if he's off base...then I'm okay with being off base.

A LONG time ago I made the leap from kiddie ball to the hs level. AT my first assignment this old crusty guy from the association was sent to watch. I spotted him around the 3rd inning and i proceeded to show him my chops.

I had a great game...smooth pivot onto the infield...lots of hustle..etc.
After the game my partner introduces him to me, and I can hardly wait to ask......"did you see anything I need to work on? Got any advise?'

" I'm glad you asked"...." best advise I can give you is have a garage sale and sell your gear". " Nice to meet ya" and walks away.

Now I don't know whether to smile...or kick his old ***. So I go home thinking wtf is this? What makes this guy think he is so good? I'm younger...quicker... and a lot better looking for sure...wtf?

I have done tons of games before this...again wtf? So I go see him work..and the little, intangible thing start to rise and I see I've got a long way to go. So I watch, I listen, I ask questions...and get smart *** answers..but I don't get butt-sore...I listen.I don't say" well I was taught to do".......I knew I was being taught....

If you check my past posts you will see I don't list my "credentials" as to say look at me, I've done...blah-blah. But this time I will say...fastforward.3-4 yrs........This old guy picks me to work ( my first) NCS 3aFinal at the Oakland Coliseum. I am so stoked.......so I ask him..."why did you bust my balls way back when?'

He says," I just wanted to see if you got your feelings hurt and to see if you could learn" " I don't suffer fools and you might have been one!" That was almost 13 yrs ago. I work NCS every year,been out of state a couple times...big deal.The point is I love my work. I want to be one of the best..so I learn.

As stated in another thread, I would jump at the chance to work with Tee..JRutledge..Pete Booth..because...I know I could learn SOMETHING...we all can learn something. These men don't suffer fools. They will teach..but you must learn. These are no nonsense umpires, who make the right call, whether it's popular or not.As it should be.

There are alot of posts along the line of " I got in trouble because I called...insert sitch...and they didn't like it" So what? If your working with me and you don't call it...first time not a big problem at all....second time we have a big problem.There will be no third time because I won't work with a guy who won't work at his craft. One who decides he wants everyone on the yard to like him.

On my yard I get along with most people...but I have only one friend out there.My partner. He might not be my best friend...but my friend he is.

While I'm on the topic of friends. I like to think that RPatrino is my friend. We haven't worked together in a long time, but I would in a heartbeat.

Now Bob...tell the truth...remember the first time we worked together and you asked.." Got any tips"..and I said " Yes I do..have a garage sale and.....":p

griff

Isn't that a bit rude to tell another umpire to have a garage sale and then just walk away? That lack of communication and manners is not justifiable in my opinion, no matter what the circumstances.

I guess I come from a place where such behavior doesn't send grown men into a hissy fit.

Reread my post...I was perplexed..but instead of thinking what a rude person this guy is, I wondered how good is he? I am quite comfortable in my masculinity so I wasn't insulted. My work may have been insulted, but I wasn't. When I saw how good he really was, I realised that although he may be harsh, he knows of what he speaks.Busting balls is a side bar...a personality trait of his( of which I too relish I love a good ball-busting).

Ever run across a person who just wants to push your buttons..just to see what you'll do? Now if you get all twisted up and you can't take it, ok. No fun there because now if he says something to that type it's not fun anymore.
That's being rude. I agree rude is not good.

I know we are for the most part very nice guys here...don't beat our wives..kick the dog... but some of us need to lighten up.

griff

I fully understand and agree with most of what Griff stated, and all of what canada ump said in this quote.

Anyone who treats another human being like you were treated is out of line, period. Your treating it as a stepping stone rather than a pothole is commendable.

But umpiring is hard enough and costly enough at the beginning that cruel and egocentric experts and evaluators are far more often destructive than helpful. It's also that way in parenting, coaching or other forms of teaching.

We need more good umpires to join and stick in the ranks, and fewer abusive, self-aggrandizing pedants chasing them off.

There were two types of persons at my umpire school in 1997.

There were the "Tim C" types, and there was everyone else.

On the first day of school, every instructor was a "Tim C" type, and every student was an "everyone else".

On the last day of school, every instructor was a "Tim C" type, a few students were "Tim C" types, and most students were still "everyone else".

The few students at the end who had become "Tim C" types were also packing to go to PBUC.

I hope to GOD that all the people who are posting in this thread about Tim C's "attitude" AREN'T planning to go to umpire school anytime in the future.

My chief instructor at umpire school, Jeff Nelson's comments, make Tim C's look like Mr. compassionate. (And I can say, emphatically, after getting "in the game" that Jeff is one of the game's truly good guys.)

There is a difference between attending a school and being told straight what you're doing wrong and asking an evaluator for comments following a game.

The guy Griff described is just a dick.

Do you really think the Griff wouldn't have worked on A, B and C if the evaluator mentioned he needs work on A, B and C?

There are different ways of teaching, and different ways of learning. It worked in this instance. It might not have worked had the umpire been (someone like) you or had the teacher been someone like you.

If you don't like what (insert name here) has to say, then read it and forget it. If you like what (insert name here) has to say, then read it and apply it.

There's a difference, though. I first had the pleasure of talking to Jeff when I was in my teens. He knows there's a time and place for everything.

Some parents mistreat and browbeat their children, because it is what their parents did and it seemed to work for them.

It does work--for a very small percentage of human beings.

Okay, it's time for all of us to join hands and sing Cumbaya!

Tim C, you lead us, please...

From what I've seen here, TimC knows his stuff and teaches it well. His style may not be for everyone. BFD.

As I used to tell college students who complained about certain professor's teaching styles..."You can choose to learn from him or you can find another instructor."

On this board, there seems to be a third alternative that some choose. They whine.

Well, "this Tim C. guy" has a big role in training in his association. I do not belong to it, but I work with guys who do, and when I mention his name they all vouch for his wide array of knowledge and straightforward style. He also has taken a key role in training all baseball umpires in his state. I live in his city and though I have never met him I would certainly listen carefully to anything he ever said to me.

And I agree with Ozzy: Nothing can be offensive unless you take it that way.

A lot of people seem to react just like you--as an exclusive individual, instead of a member of a fraternity.

"Knows his stuff ..." Most certainly; I never said anything to the contrary. "Teaches it well ..." :D

I'm sorry, :D ... but there would never be an issue if he were to simply teach it well.

And I can and do learn from anyone. I would love to share this vocation with anyone who could possibly be a credit to the game. And that is exactly what I attempt to do. I just don't accept that there are guys like Tim C. or the guy Griff described who choose to be haughty and exclusive and reflect so dimly on what can otherwise be a fine vocation.

That's all.

This threasd has certainly run it's course. I meant to close it last night after I posted my "discard it if you don't agree with it" post. Obviously I hit the wrong button.