Straddling rubber to take signs

[jumpmaster]

Two Bits must be a teacher! I am not sure what the "mathematical laws of syllogism or detachment" are, however, I do know a bear is not a swan. Thus, in my ever knuckle-dragging state, I must conclude that a straddling the rubber is not a balk.

--
jumpmaster al

[Ump20]

Most of the time pitchers take their signs while off the rubber at lower levels of ball. For the most part this seems to be done out of ignorance rather than an attempt to deceive the runner(s). Usually I'll see this more as BU than PU. I'll usually mention it to the offending coach and simply suggest that his catcher not give "signs" until the pitcher is on the rubber. This usually works for me. Jim/NYC

[catch9]

I generally do not call it without first having whispered to the catcher to call time out and go out and tell the pitcher that he cannot do that.

Straddling AND taking signs IS a balk.

I had a catcher tell me that he was "scratching" and not giving a sign. Too bad, bonehead. If you made it appear close enough to giving a sign that I called it - it was violating the spirit of the rule to such an extent that calling it was required.

Think about it this way.......you don't call it and the runner is picked off - the coach sees the sign taken while straddling. What reason do you give for NOT calling the balk?

The rule is there for a reason. Call it.

Since pitchers are sometimes unaware of the rule - or they have had prior umpires ignore the violation, I give the "secret, friendly, warning to the catcher. That usually makes the violation go away.

[largeone59]

Straddling the rubber and taking signs:

OBR- warn, then eject if he persists
FED- balk every time

[BigUmp56]

Originally posted by catch9

Straddling AND taking signs IS a balk.

Although the rule states that a pitcher "shall" take his signs from the catcher while on the rubber, there is no specified penalty if he takes his signs while straddling the rubber unless he steps quickly to the rubber and delivers the pitch.

Originally posted by catch9

I had a catcher tell me that he was "scratching" and not giving a sign. Too bad, bonehead. If you made it appear close enough to giving a sign that I called it - it was violating the spirit of the rule to such an extent that calling it was required.

The spirit of the rule is to prevent the pitcher from quick pitching to the batter.

Originally posted by catch9

Think about it this way.......you don't call it and the runner is picked off - the coach sees the sign taken while straddling. What reason do you give for NOT calling the balk?

Unless the pitcher has made a move naturally associated with his delivery while off the rubber, he can pick off the runner as an infielder. If I were to be questioned as to why this was not a balk, my answer would be that he's not violated the rule until he quick pitches

Originally posted by catch9

Since pitchers are sometimes unaware of the rule - or they have had prior umpires ignore the violation, I give the "secret, friendly, warning to the catcher. That usually makes the violation go away.

I agree that a little preventitive umpiring is appropriate here. Simply call time and dust off the plate while you let F2 know what's on your mind.


Tim.

[Edited by BigUmp56 on Dec 15th, 2005 at 06:01 PM]

[Tim C]

I have never met an umpire that has called a balk for a pitcher taking his sign while not in contact with the pitcher's plate.

Not one . . . never, ever.

So please define "taking a sign" for me.

With r1 and r3 and the catcher goes out in front of home plate and gives "signs" for the defensive actions if r1 steals . . . so that is "giving signs." Would you that are OOO require F1 to be in contact with the pitcher's plate while taking this "sign?"

And if you wouldn't, please direct me to a rule or written interpretation that defines what "type sign" can and cannot be given.

Sheese, work on your safes/outs, ball/strikes and fair/fouls.

Watch for a quick return pitch and enjoy the game.

Tee

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by largeone59
Straddling the rubber and taking signs:

OBR- warn, then eject if he persists
FED- balk every time

largeone59,

Can you tell me what interpretation you are citing for warning and ejecting under OBR? Is it from a manual, or are you just using Rule 9.01 (b,c,and d?) I have never had the pitcher disobey my order to take his signs on the rubber, but I would like to know the correct ruling. Thanks.

Steve

[NFump]

Steve,

There is no penalty under OBR for taking signs without being on the rubber. However, J/R suggests to call time and have the pitcher correct himself or talk to his coach about it for the first time. The second time give a warning and the third would be an ejection.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by NFump
Steve,

There is no penalty under OBR for taking signs without being on the rubber. However, J/R suggests to call time and have the pitcher correct himself or talk to his coach about it for the first time. The second time give a warning and the third would be an ejection.

Thanks,

As I said, it has never gotten to the point of ejection, so I really had no clue as to how to deal with it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by largeone59
Straddling the rubber and taking signs:

OBR- warn, then eject if he persists
FED- balk every time

You forgot the first steps:

1) Ignore it.
2) If the coach complains, ignore him.
3) If the coach complians again, tell him in a loud voice (so F1 and F2 can hear) that you'll watch more carefully.
3a) Look for some equally picky violation by the complainant or his team
4) If you think F1 is about to break the rule, call time and dust the plate.
5) If you think F1 is about to break the rule, call time and ask F2 to go talk to F1.

[NFump]

Bingo, Bango, Bongo! Bob nails it again!

[largeone59]

yeah, what bob said. i was just giving the quick answer before i left.

as a matter of fact, i had a coach complain about this during summer league (OBR). he was a big cry baby. i pretty much did exactly what bob said to do. his team was getting raped by a terrible team, so he was nit picking for stuff to get an edge in a rat-like manner.


P.S. steve- i got the interpretation from the Jim Evans Balk Video.

[phillips.alex]

Originally posted by TwoBits
I didn't understand why straddling the rubber was not a balk until I read the above statement. It perfectly describes an invalid conclusion that cannot be proven by the mathematical laws of syllogism or detachment. I know I am about to be ridiculed by the following explanation, but I'll do it anyway.

According to the consensus of this board:
1) A balk is an illegal act.
2) Straddling the rubber is an illegal act.
3) Straddling the rubber is a balk.

Not true!

Look at it this way, but instead of balk, use "bear", instead of straddling the rubber, use "swan", & instead of illegal act, use "animal":
1) A bear is an animal.
2) A swan is an animal.
3) A swan is a bear.

You see?

clearly you didn't take quite enough philosophy in college. Reconstructed to reflect the truth, the argument would go like this:

1)A balk is any act with runners on base that falls under rule 8.05 (8.05)
2)A pitch is illegal if it is delivered after signs are taken off of the rubber (8.01)
3)An illegal pitch falls under rule 8.05 (8.05)
Therefore, A pitch that is delivered after signs are taken off of the rubber is a balk, provided there are runners on base.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by phillips.alex
1)A balk is any act with runners on base that falls under rule 8.05 (8.05)
2)A pitch is illegal if it is delivered after signs are taken off of the rubber (8.01)
3)An illegal pitch falls under rule 8.05 (8.05)
Therefore, A pitch that is delivered after signs are taken off of the rubber is a balk, provided there are runners on base.

Nice. But "Illegal Pitch" is a defined term in OBR -- it *only* means a quick pitch or a pitch while not in contact with the rubber. Any other act, even if it is illegal and is a pitch, is not an "Illegal Pitch."

[David B]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

3a) Look for some equally picky violation by the complainant or his team

Works every time.

Thanks
David