Buying yourself (and your partner) trouble
 

Worked an MSBL game last night on the bases. My partner is around fifty and has been officiating for quite a while. Unfortunately his mechanics have deteriorated to the point where his strike zone is suffering.

In the second inning he calls a high strike three. Batter and bench are all over him. Batter is openly hostile arguing toe to toe at the plate. Bench is going nuts. Plate ump allows the arguing. When I hear, "that's horse#$%" come from the bench I draw the line and tell them to knock it off. Being that I was the base ump I didn't want to be the one ejecting for arguing balls and strikes. However, had I been behind the plate I would have ejected the batter for sure and quite possibly the person in the dugout screaming about horse excrement.

Things simmer down a bit but three innings later a similar call sets the batter and his team off again. This time my partner finally gets around to warning them. Again, the arguing should have warranted an ejection.

Bottom of the ninth and the same team is trying to even up the score. Batter goes 0-2. Third pitch is a check swing. Partner comes to me and I signal out. All hell breaks loose. Batter comes down the line and I chuck him. Father of one of the players sitting behind home plate comes unglued (these players are all over 25) and starts screaming profanities and plate ump finally gets off his duff and tosses him. In the meantime I'm dealing with the bench threatening that one of them is next to go if they can't figure out how to be quiet. The result of another ejection would be a forfeit as they only had nine players left.

Anyway, the team calms down and ties the game. We go two more innings in this four hour marathon with the other team winning by one.

One of the problems with this league is that the same group of umps work the games year in and year out and become chummy with the teams. This makes it rough for some of the umps to dispense punishment when it's warranted. I believe that this is the case with what happened in the game. Plate ump, in an effort to be all things to all people, compromised his ability to do some of the less than pleasant functions of his job. His inability to nut it up in the second inning caused the huge problem in the bottom of the ninth and made it so I had to do his job for him.

What have we learned from this incident?

1. While it's ok for umps to be friendly with the teams this warm relationship should not compromise your ability to do your job.

2. By being too lax in your responsibiities you make it tough on the next group of officials who have a more normal view on rule enforcement and do not give the same lattitude.

I also do MSBL on Sundays in Las Vegas. I know alot of the players from doing there games from LL, HS, some that went to college. Then MSBL. They know that I have no problem ejecting them. When they argue balls and strikes and other judgement calls I offer them a umpire uniform to help us. I have also been known to tell them that they only play 1 game a week and that if I called a tight zone there games would go 5 hrs. They few times I might have a tight zone they will tell me Jim open that zone up.

[QUOTE=IceGator8]One of the problems with this league is that the same group of umps work the games year in and year out and become chummy with the teams. This makes it rough for some of the umps to dispense punishment when it's warranted. I believe that this is the case with what happened in the game. Plate ump, in an effort to be all things to all people, compromised his ability to do some of the less than pleasant functions of his job. His inability to nut it up in the second inning caused the huge problem in the bottom of the ninth and made it so I had to do his job for him.

What have we learned from this incident?

1. While it's ok for umps to be friendly with the teams this warm relationship should not compromise your ability to do your job.[QUOTE]

They aren't called rats for no reason. There is nothing to gain by being their "buddy" during the game. We're there to be impartial, and you can't be "buddies" with ANYONE and be impartial.

JJ

Do not umpire MSBL games.

They are by far the worst no matter if you call a great game or not. They are cry babys.

Pete Booth

"Guys, I am not going to listen to you argues balls and strikes today. If you want to play today, keep quiet and play ball" always seems to work. When it doesn't, the first ejection usually takes care of the rest.

I agree that MSBL tends to be a bit whiney, but it is still game management that gets you through it looking good. If you can't manage it, you probably shouldn't be doing that "level" of ball until you learn how to manage it.

I have plenty of "friends" and "buddies" that play MSBL too. I have tossed a few of them and we have a good laugh about it when we see each other away from the field.

It is starting to look like some of you around here can't handle ANY critical comments towards you.

Not really. Familiarity = contempt.


I have had this same issue before...old(er) partner, been umping since the earth cooled, EVERYbody knows/loves the old man, but he's been at it too long and when the game starts they run all over him and he can't/won't defend himself.

When it got bad I started ejecting on his behalf and cleaned up his mess, just to regain some semblance of control over matters. That's a 'team' aspect of umpiring, when your partner's failure reaches the point of threatening the game. It's a near last resort but if you gotta, you gotta....

I was never too crazy about MSBL and NABA games, as the players were usually former minor and major leaguers who still thought they were the greatest thing to ever come down the pike. I had these guys on short leashes as far as taking any BS.

I did really like working the Mexican-American adult leagues, however. They still whined and argued, but they always had some great Mexican food and cold cervezas after the games. You could be friendly with them and still throw them out of games when needed. Like rei said, we'd have a good laugh about it later over beer and other nice bennies :). I would never allow what the umpire in the OP allowed to happen.

No, familiarity breeds contempt. I always wear my Familiarity Condom :p .

Pfft, this is the IntardWeb age...... we use symbols now :p

Trust me, these players were over the line. My partner should have taken care of it.

Are you SURE you don't live in Birmingham ? 'Cause I'd swear I know this gentleman.....

I think we all know him. ;)

I won't do MSBL anymore, for all the reasons sighted above.

I do agree with Steve, the Mexican league games I have done have been fantastic. The level of play is pretty good, all the pitchers want to be the next Fernando Valenzuela. And, the after game picnic was a thing of beauty, I must say.

My comment was not directed at you per se.

Outstanding point. I'm sure we do.

Amen brother! Not too much ball around here, unless you're willing to do MSBL, playoffs no less. Usually start the season with thity or so willing umpires, that number is down to about twelve to fifteen by the time playoffs role around. Always like to trade MSBL war stories!

At least you don't have to deal with their parents, also !

I've found the best way to manage adult leagues is to treat the players like children, because most of them still are children. Laugh when they complain about something stupid, or even chirp back at them. Now if they do something really aggressive like chucking a piece of equipment or anything else that the whole ballpark sees, they've got to go, but a lot of them are a lost cause and an ejection won't make things any better.

Yes, sometimes they do stuff that warrants an ejection. But young one, you probably have quite a ways to go to understand what you can do BEFORE that to keep the peace.

I can tell you this. You go into any adult game with "authority issues", you are going to have a long day! If you are even a little bit pretentious, they will grind away at you. That is the way it is, and it took me too many seasons of jacking a bunch of them before I figured out who the real problem is. Once I got myself in check, I found the adult leagues a LOT easier to game manage and hear a lot less crap.

I just have fun with them while still giving them excellent focus and a impartial job.

What should I do to keep the peace?

Six Shooter anyone?
 

I've always thought Mr. S. Colt made a great peacemaker...:D

Actually, keep in mind that you can happily interact with certain players who will 'watch your back' if things explode. It's important to know the personalities in the Men's league you umpire so you don't get sucked into playing their game. Keeping the peace is easy - be consistent and keep your answers to any questions short...I look at a six word max before I get myself into trouble...

Wise post! :)

I work a "fall ball" mens league. It's the only really bad baseball I'll do. The field is a few miles from my house they're DH's and the pay is good. A good number of the players only play in the fall. The quality of play well let me put it this way a good freshman team would beat most of them and a good sophmore team would dominate. The only good thing is that they're 7 innings with a time limit. Most of the players have an attitude that I would describe as: It's great to be out with my buddies and I'm just happy I can still play. If you have two teams like this the evening can be OK even though the quality of play leaves much to be desired. You have trouble when you run into a team or player that thinks they're good. When this happens I'll use all my tricks to keep them in the game. If that doesn't work enjoy the view from the parking lot.

This describes most of the 28 and older men's teams I have done. Except, some of these teams in our area are quite good! Also, it seems that the 18 and over and the 38 and over leagues whine less. Something about those mid-30's guys that make them whine more. :)

Anyway, most of them just want to have a good time. I go out doing these games realizing that the quality of the playing is not going to be that great, and that there is not going to be any hustle between innings, and that they are going to complain a bit. What the hell, my strike zone gets a little bigger, I don't have to super hustle to next positions, and I see it as an opportunity to work on keeping guys in the game. I almost always walk away from adult league games feeling appreciated, and feeling like I had a pretty good time. If I handled the ejection(s) right, usually guys from that players teams are thanking me for "putting up with us today".

You can't be a control freak and do adult ball. It just don't work. If you approach umpiring these games like you would a high school game, you are not going to get along too well out there.

I look at it this way. Adult leagues are where I DIRECTLY service who pays me. I approach that with a certain amount of respect. In turn, I seem to get a good amount of respect in return. If I am not playing games out there, they don't play them with me.

When you say that you directly service who pays you...are you referring to trying to keep guys in the game...not asking them to hustle, etc...

I guess I'm just asking for some clarification. I work quite a bit of adult league ball...so I'm curious as to some other game management strategies that might be out there.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. When I used to toss quickly, have that "attitude", and try to get them hustling, it was met with a lot of animosity. Once I accepted that they will get along at their pace, and that most games will go to the time limit, things improved!

You just have to relax a bit more on adult league games. Have fun with them. But, you still have to focus and be consistent. I think a lot of guys can't stay focused with all the distractions, which is why I say that not everybody is cut out to do adult leagues. You have to have your stuff down PAT and no how to turn it on and off quickly. Some guys just can't deal with that, and they usually have problems doing adult leagues. It is the same in every sport.

It's all fun and games with these guys...until they disagree with a call...

Usually happens around here because games are 9 innings - with no mercy rule.:mad:

Usually one or two a-holes on a team spoil a decent game.

21+ leagues have decent catchers...but watch out for those old farts...

I did an adult game tonight. The same batter went 0 for 3, with three called strikeouts. Every time he said something objectionable, getting worse on every strikeout. Finally I just said "goodbye" and tossed him, not knowing that the game was over. Oh well, hopefully he gets a game suspension. Baseball doesn't need players who refuse to swing the bat and then yell at the umpire when they have a sh1t game at the plate.

As for keeping people in the game- good luck trying to do that while keeping the game under control. I had 3 people arguing with me at once over an interference call, personal comments all over the place and of course acting out the play the way they thought it went. Sometimes you've just got to mouth off right back to them, because ejecting people will only give you a bad reputation.

*tisk tisk* You didn't read a word I wrote in this thread did you? ;)

How do you not know that the game is over? Aren't you paying attention to what inning you're in? Man, I never wanted to be surprised that the game is over. If you would have known the game was over, you could have rung him up, walked away, headed for the gate, and left him at the plate cursing to nobody in particular. You can't toss him after the game's over in OBR anyway. I don't think you're gonna get a suspension for this dude, since your ejection was "unofficial."

Screw keeping them in the game. They need to keep themselves in the game. So what you get a reputation? You will get a reputation that you don't take any crap, as long as you eject with authority, and don't act like a squirt about it, throwing a similar tantrum. Let them throw the tantrum, and if they do something that crosses the line, calmly and forcefully eject their sorry a$$ from the game! Hey, if you get known as a no-nonsense umpire, who doesn't suffer fools, soon they will start keeping their mouths shut and just playing ball and living with your calls. It's weakness that they don't respect. They don't respect umpires who continue to tolerate the things you are describing.

You had 3 people arguing with you at once? Where was your partner during all of this? Why wouldn't your partner be down there getting the extra participants off your a$$? I wouldn't work with a partner who would let 3 rats argue with me and was just standing around looking at his shoes.

Personal comments? Gone. Acting out the play? Good Lord, GONE. How could you allow that to continue? Eject their asses down to 8 players and go home. They will get the hint not to f*ck with you if you show them who's running the show. I'll be damned if I let some weekend warrior wannabe ex-nobodies/has-beens/never-weres run me! You have to establish the arbiter-player hierarchy or they will eat you alive.

Here are a few things that would draw an automatic ejection from me:

<ol>Leaving the bench or position to argue balls and strikes
Drawing a line in the dirt to show me where the pitch was
Reenacting a play demonstrably
Getting personal or using foul language directed at me
Continuing to argue after being told "that's enough"
Bumping me intentionally</ol>

Steve,

Great points, all of which I agree with. Sadly, being new to doing "adult" ball, I've tried the take no crap approach but it hasn't worked out well. With the various politics at some of the upper levels, I have become very unpopular for throwing out rats whom the umpire in chief sides with. It's a catch 22. Should I take abuse and continue moving up the umpiring ladder, or should I toss rats and not be wanted to do their games?

If I didn't have the support of my superior, I would stop doing baseball for that superior, who frankly is not superior to anyone. Why in the world would your UIC side with the rats? Doesn't sound like much of an umpire to me. You can tell him I said so, and I'll tell him to his face if you'd like. He has you hamstrung to where you can't win. Either find a new group to umpire with, or tell this f*cker that you will umpire the way you're supposed to!

Link: http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sp...snot_0611.html

It's hard to give say exactly how you should handle something. What works for me may not work for you and what works for you may not work for the next guy. Bottom line is to know where the line is yourself and when they cross it they're done. I've said before, the only ejections I regret are the ones I didn't make.

Final advice, don't officiate any game to please the participants. If they sense that they'll walk all over you. Work hard, do a good job and you'll always have work.

I was originally led to believe that these ejections were considered "unofficial." He has 6 now this season and 142 for his career BTW.

I generally agree.

I would add, though, that you do need to work to "please the participants" -- not necessarily just those involved in the current game, but the league overall.

You need to figure out *why* you're getting so much crap and figure out *if* you can address is. Some things that I've seen in other leagues (and, I'm NOT saying that any of these apply to you):

1) Umpires worried too much about things that don't matter (bats in the on-deck circle, uniforms, players mingling about outside the dugout, the pace between innings) to the participants (iow, being an OOO)

2) Umpires not calling the strike zone expected IN THAT LEAGUE

3) Poor umpiring / judgement (including the proper / expected application of the neighborhood paly and the "expected call" for that league) / hustle (including "over hustle" or "false hustle")

4) It's the nature of the league to ***** a little and the umpire doesn't distinguish between what's "allowed" and what's "too much" (let me add that if what's "allowed" is too much for a particular umpire, that umpire should choose not to work that league)

I generally agree with this post. I think the key point is figuring out if there is something YOU can be doing to cut down on the *****ing. It is not like these guys are ALWAYS wrong about the strike zone! :rolleyes:

I also agree that you cannot enforce all the ticky tacky stuff about equipment on the field in foul territory, mingling outside the dugouts, etc... Hey, these guys pay their own hard earned money to play in this league. If those are the things they want to do, let it go until it becomes an issue somehow. Then, you should "suggest" that they do something about it. If the other team is complaining, remind them that you will have to enforce the same thing on them. Usually, cooler heads will say "Hey blue, never mind. No worries".

Did a NABA league semi-final game tonight on the dish. The winning teams starting pitcher had a perfect game thru 1 out in the bottom of the 6th, then gave up 3 hits and 3 runs. Anyway, the opposing teams catcher, an ex-D1 player was at bat, and looked at an 1-2 that was a ball width inside at the belt. A strike on anybody else, but not my catcher! The pitcher couldn't get over it. I finally, in a low voice as he walked by after one of the hits told him to quit arguing balls and strikes. Not another word from him, and he actually went out of his way to approach me half way to the car to apologize and shake me hand.

I don't know how I do it sometimes, but I DO know that the D1 umpire who presented Verbal Judo to me claimed that guys I would normally have had to eject in the past, and would be huge problems in a game would probably start apologizing for their behavior if Verbal Judo was applied correctly. Guess what? He was right! :D

I wish I knew what verbal judo was.

Hint: google is your friend. so is amazon.

If you are really a psychology major, you probably do...just not under that label.

It's been around for decades and recently repackaged and sold to the gullible who just discovered the sun comes up in the morning.

Just watch out for the verbal Tae Kwon Do. :)

If that's too violent, there's always verbal b!tch slapping.

I'm sure the Olympic referee wishes that Cuban competitor had used "verbal"
Taekwondo ..........

and down goes another thread

Well,
 

Canada:

Let me explain something:

When I first heard of "internet umpire message boards" it was explained to me that these boards were the same as a group of umpires sitting around a favorite watering hole sharing an adult beverage and talking about "stuff."

That was exactly what I was looking for: a group of people with a common "hobby" that could interface about an entire spectrum of ideas, concepts, thoughts and passions.

In my neck of the woods I don't remember a time when the conversation of the group of umpires didn't drift off to subjects such as hunting and fishing, family, girl friends, movies or other extraneous items.

It seems that every time a thread on this site moves off to some off direction you always complain. Tell me: if you were sitting in a group of umpires after a tourney final talking umpiring and someone started talking about Tiger Woods would you tell them "get back on subject!"

I have a small suggestion: when a thread goes a direction you don't care for just quite reading it.

Just like any group of people we have various interests and hot buttons . . . maybe you take this whole thing to seriously.

Regards,

:confused:

Really? From what I've heard it seems to be helpful.

So people who don't know as much as you are now gullible? Hmm...

It is, and has been for at least the past 60 years.

Never said that. I implied that anyone believing it was something new or even something that much of the world didn't already use in some form or another was gullible.

Did anybody state that they believe that? Or was your post simply a way to take stabs at somebody bringing up the concept? :rolleyes:

So again, I ask the fair question, was this post just an attempt at starting a flame war? I am not sure how this post was constructive in the conversation that was ongoing, and seemed to be going along great until this post. You see, people were just discussing how to do game management for adult leagues. I brought up Verbal Judo. You post this stuff about it being recycled stuff for the "gullible who just discovered the sun comes up in the morning".

Tell me, do you bait coaches like this? My bet is you do. :rolleyes:

Tee,

My complaint was due to the fact that the thread will soon be locked. I have no problem with discussions going off topic now and then.

Qrong partner got the grief
 

I don't get it. If my partner opens his mouth to the dugout on a chirp about balls and strikes he is going to hear it from me after the game. That is what I expect to see from newbies and screwups, not guys who are working MSBL. Around here those leagues are filled with ex college and former MiLb guys. Sure they whine and act like chicken**** some times but I don't need my partners heaping more on the plate. This incident sounds like the base ump overreacted. I'll take the slow trigger over the kid who thinks he's ready for more but shows otherwise everytime.

You can be friendly without being friends to these guys too. I don't say nice hit or great catch like I've heard before, but I have been known to smile at a guy who says nice to see you again blue. Knowing when too much is not good separates some of us from the rest.

The typical MSBL umpire is a screwup.

Are you speaking of the original post or one of the replies?

Come on. This comment is a load and you know it. It is possible that in your area the MSBL uses inferior umpires but to apply that to leagues across the country is a stretch.

You are correct. Here they don't let you do any adult baseball unless you've been around awhile and know what you're doing. They don't send the screwups because they know they'll be eaten alive by the douche bags that play in these leagues. If you work adult ball here, there are liable to be anywhere from a couple to 5 or 6 former minor and big league players in any given game (depending on the level), as well as former college players, and they don't put up with bad umpiring.

If you can't umpire, it gets back to the assignment secretary, and you don't work the adult baseball anymore. Out here, if you suck, you do low-level youth ball and JV games only. The better umpires get the varsity, palomino and adult league games.

We don't have MSBL here, but I have worked some MSBL tournaments as an out of town umpire on a subsidized vacation.

[QUOTE]
It all depends upon availability.

The adult league games are NOT our Bread and Butter.

The bread and butter leagues are

1. Legion ( we get all their regular season games plus tournaments)
2. CBL - Collegiate Wood bat league.
3. 19 and under -These are teams which are not in Legion but have high quality Varsity players and first year college players.
4. The youth leagues ranging from 17 and under to 12 and under. All Regular season games plus tournaments


In other words the mens leagues are 'last on the totum poll" meaning the more advanced level umpires are covering the "bread and butter leagues" mentioned above. It's been my experience that you can send Gerry Davis and his ML umpiring crew to a mens league game and it wouldn't make any bit a difference. The mens league would say that Gerry Davis et al suck just like they do your average Jo Smo.

The only reason (until this year - Thank God) that we even serviced the mens league is because no one else would. This is the first year we do not service them and as mentioned Thank God. Yes you have some decent players but any decent college player is playing in the CBL league not some beer league.

There were certain teams that we used to have over / unders on meaning how many would get thrown out today. The winner bought the brew on the way home.

and they do not put up with good umpiring either.

Pete Booth

This thread shows again how different baseball is in different parts of the country.

Where I live:

The adult leagues (+30 & +40) generally are fun to work, with the exception of Musial (+18), which I will not do for any money. The caliber of play is far below what the players think it is, and good umpires are rare. They'd rather golf and pay $60 than earn $60 listening to whine, whine, whine every night.

All, and I do mean all, the better college players head for the coasts. Even the second-liners play CICL, Great Lakes or NBC. Our college league consists 90% of D3, JUCO and future (HS grads who have signed, but have yet to play a college game) players.

U18 summer ball is vastly superior to HS ball, both in quality and in pay. I understand in most parts of the country, that is rare on both accounts.

The HS fall league pays 20% more than HS varsity, largely because once football starts, they'd be umpiring their own games otherwise.

Blanket statements concerning the quality of both specific leagues/levels of baseball and umpiring that are intended to encompass what one finds throughout the USA are either careless or ill-informed. What you find varies greatly by region, and even within regions.

Ny experience here is that adults over 30 are happy to still be playing and those over 40 are really happy to still be playing so neither give a lot of grief to umpires. The problem with adult league is the under 30 crowd who think their sh*t don't stink and they should all be playing in the BIGs. They just don't get it.

Although it has been several years since I have worked a 60 foot game, or an adult league game for that matter, it is infinitely more enjoyable to work games with some 12 year old kids and 38 year old coaches who don't talk much than work games with 25 year old kids who like to hear themselves talk loudly.

And games last forever in adult league...

My opinion on adults leagues is this,

A fair game with good game management - easy pay.

Most of these guys have been around awhile and, supringly, now more rules than your average high school coach.


Edited? it's early, so please forgive my spelling