no runners - base hit, responsibility for the BR
 

hi,
we discussed the following today and had different opinions.
sit : no runners on base, base hit to the OF gap, BR makes it at least into 2ndbase, but could go further.

a.) BU takes the BR into 2ndbase and 3rdbase
b.) BU takes the BR to 2ndbase, PU takes the play at 3rdbase

what's the advantage/disadvantage of a or b ?

~Cripes~
 

There is no reason on earth to use the ancient NFHS mechanic (b).

The base umpire is just that . . . a base umpire and other than Nebraska I do not know of any other state that requires the worthless PU to third mechanic.

Regards,

Tim, I believe TASO mechanics have the PU to cover 3rd in this situation as well.

That's a pregame topic for me. Depending on the mobility of the BU, he will follow it around to 3rd.

-Josh

Mobility?

He only need to travel about 200' in the same amount of time that the b/r go 290'. If he can't do that, he has NO business doing that level of game!

Good God. A BU that can't take a BR around to third should just pack it in.

Absolutely. Even in the out-of-shape state I'm in now, I can still beat the BR to 3rd from A anytime (I'd be out of breath these days, but I'd still be there in a set position ready to make the call at the cutout).

No reason at all for the PU to go to 3rd on this play. Stay home where ya belong! I hate it when plate guys creep up the line thinking they're helping out when I've got 3rd. Just go back to tending your little garden and let me do my job!

I will join Tim, rei, and Rich in taking BR all the way to 3B. You can cut through the infield to get there, you know. And I know I can use the exercise. :)

I hate when the batter hits a gapper, I get a good jump out of P2, do my pivot, watch the touch of first, stay ahead of him, watch him touch second, hustle down to the third base cutout ahead of the runner... and my partner is there at third base trashing all the work I did to get there.

I also hate when I run my *** off all the way to the cutout at 2nd when my base partner goes out, and I still don't get any respect at the higher levels of baseball. But that is a different issue for another time.

You expect a pat on the back for doing your job? Wrong bidness.

I guess it was my mistake to assume that hustling and dressing professionally would help me earn respect on the ball diamond.

if i got myself an NFL uniform, showed up, ran my a$$ off, but fuhcked everything up royally, i wouldn't expect any respect.

responsibility for baserunner
 

It would seem if anyone uses the ancient method of making the plate umpire go to third on a triple, then the BU should immediately run home upon releasing the runner at second, in case of an overthrow at 3rd, and a subsequent play at the dish.

Sure, ths makes perfect sense <not>. Have BU run away from a potential play (BR back into 2B or a run down) and go 120' from the cutout to HP, with his back to the play? Why not cut the angle angle and move 70' to make the call at 3B?

The ONLY times the PU will get involved here is when the BU goes out on a trouble ball or covering his 1/2 of a run down.

I'll hip check right into the dugout, then poach "your play" at HP too..
BU all the way.

But if I pull a hammy or something it's nice to know you'd be there for me.

Good one for ya. Last season, 18U.
3 man, with a couple guys I'd work anywhere with.
Even now.

Ch. game. Game 4 for all of us that day, hot tired, hungry all that...

1st batter, I mean lead off.
LHer.
I'm in the bucket.
Batter rips what's looking like a smooth Dbl maybe even 3bagger if it stay's fair down the RF line.
U1 goes out.
I follow the BR.
BR gets about 3 strides from 1B, I just happen to glance over to check on U2.
Much to my surprise!! He's set up real nice at 3B, waving his fan in his face, he might even a had a drink in his hand; he ain't gonna get anywhere near
2nd base.
I check the touch of 1B and head to the cut out at 2nd. I get about 2 strides past the mound, all the while staring at my partner over by 3rd.
He finally realizes what's going on here: The look on his face was "worth" the extra effort.. Red faced look of horror.
The look on U1's face was pretty good too, as he came trotting on in from RF, we're like, oh yeah, he's in for it now...
BR glides in to 2B ball comes in from F4 to SS,,I quietly say "time", BR and SS were the only ones that heard me, no signal at all.

As I take a round about way towards 3RD, still looking somewhat at
2ND like time ain't out, U2's "dying" over there, he's wanting something to climb under..
I say, "ah the guy closest to the plate usually calls time", as I kinda raise my hands just a little. "time" he sings out..

We had some pretty good laughs at his expense the rest of the game.

Course me and U1 are signaling like it's 2man.

Every runner at 1B, U1 fakes a couple steps towards B etc.
Every base hit I'm juking towards 2nd.
Needless to say he (we as a matter of fact) had a great game the rest of the way, real nice and tight..

So it happens, best to be ready for it.

The advantage of the BU taking the play into third - if there's an overthrow, the PU is already in foul ground with a far better angle to watch the ball approach or enter dead ball territory.
Also, the PU has do do all that ball-strike stuff, and the BU is dreaming most of the game, so why NOT make the BU run a little? :rolleyes:

JJ

well, and how many times per game does this really happened...once...maybe twice...

Right or wrong I've seen it done many different ways over the years. It's always best to discuss it and remove all doubt of nobody being there. Just my two sense. I agree that if an umpire can't beat a baserunning to 3b he probably shouldn't be out there, but it happens.

-Josh

The PU taking the BR to third as well as taking the second play on the infield at third seems to be a common softball mechanic. I highly recommend discussing this with your partner in your pre-game, if you happen to work with softball guys a lot. I learned this the hard way!!

I was working with a tourney UIC/PU and taking a batter/runner to 3rd and, peripherally, saw PU 2/3-way to third. Easy play a third.

At the 1/2-inning, I asked, "WTF were you doing on third base? The next time I see you there I'm stopping at 2nd and then I'm leaving. Stay outa my yard or ump alone."

Of course with runners on he was still ready to help. :)

The best blues in the world often times don't get the respect they maybe deserve from players/managers/coaches

On a related note...

R2, 1 out. Ground ball to shortstop who throws to first for the force out, then the first baseman throws to third to nab R2. Am I not correct in thinking the base umpire should take both calls?

You are correct, but you'd be surprised how many gung-ho PUs will go charging up that line as if you aren't even there, just ready to step on your call.

I tell them in pre-game to stay at the plate unless they are supposed to be at 3rd. These are the same guys that on a 1st to 3rd play are at home looking at the flowers and leave you hanging for the play at 3rd.:rolleyes:

This is one (of a handful) of plays where mechanics differ. PBUC has gone back-and-forth on this mechanic for years.

I am in favour of the plate umpire staying home on this one to watch for overthrows. If the base umpire hustles he should be able to take the play at first and third.

Plate guy should stay home here and be communicating with the BU letting him know what is happening behind him.

Even if the BU is using perfect mechanics of seeing the force at first and then retreating to 3rd as he makes the call. This is so helpful and I always appreciate it when guys do this. Just a simple "behind you." or "nothing behind you" is all.

200' from A to the third-base cutout? If I'm setting up that deep in A (about 160' behind first base), I think I'd let the plate umpire take the B/R at third.

If you have to run more than 125' from A to get within 13' of third, you're setting up WAAAY too deep.

That, or you really do work BIG diamond games.

I work softball in the HS season. With bases empty, BR belongs to the BU all the way.

With R1 only, PU takes the play at third and BU takes the batter. This is especially important to remember at varsity/advanced levels of softball since with R1 there will likely be a bunt and if the throw goes to 1B, R1 may decide to keep going to third without hesitating. Usually, PU comes back home as well.

I believe that PU should get his butt up there on the 2nd play in the infield, but as you point out, PBUC can't make up their mind.

Can't ask BU to make 2 calls within 3 seconds of each other when they are 144 feet apart.... I'd rather BU move over and get the proper angle at 1st, and let PU have plenty of time to think about his angle at 3rd.

IMO, it is similar to PU being the guy to get INT at 2nd base on a DP ball. And that is when BU has just a 90 degree swivel, and is maybe 30 feet from one play and 60 from another.

Now, he's probably going to have to cut the distance in half from behind the mound, not get a good look at the play at first, have proper timing, now swivel 180 degrees, have a play explode on him from about 70 feet away, probably without a good angle (not as good as a hustling PU can get).

I always go over this in my pregame, ask what pard wants to do. I'd say 90% of the time, they are coming out.

200' from A to 3rd base cutout in OR--144' on a line from 1st to 3rd in NC.

I guess baseball really IS different in the midwest. We seem to play on much smaller diamonds than the guys on the coasts.

Oh NO!
 

This statement is, in my opinion, total BullRoar!

In most cases the BU will be in "B" after adjusting to the play at first base. He then simply "opens the gate" as we do on a steal of second and allow the ball to take us to the play at third.

In most cases this means I gain two, three or even four steps towards third base over the back of the mound.

At the VERY MOST an old guy like me is within 60' of third base easily (and if I started in "C" I am even closer) and if you believe in "angle over distance" the call at third is easy and if you are smart enough to continue to move towards third base when things are all over you'll never be more than 45' from the call.

In my opinion this is far superior than encouraging the PU to leave early from his responsibilities of fair/foul, pulled foot and swipe tag at first to get up to a position at third base that may, under the best of conditions, be equal to that attained by the BU.

Even though PBUC has ventured back towards the PU moving that does not make it 'best" for umpires working non-professional games.

Since professional umpire administrators can't decide (the mechanic has changed seven times since 1974) we will hardly find the answer here.

Regards,

Ok, your math wins.

127...

True Tim, we won't find an answer here.

I believe that a PU that is in shape can move 70 feet from the time after we know the ball is fair (when fielder fields the ball) until the time it has taken the fielder to throw to first, then the runner goes his remaining 80 feet to third. I know I can...

I also believe that a BU can get pulled feet and swipe tags from B or C most of the time (above 90%).

So, by moving up to third on this play, we are compromising a potential problem at first with a swipe tag or pulled foot for, what I believe to be, a better look at a close play at third.

All compromise... no matter how you slice it. You could have situations either way where something doesn't get covered with either mechanic... And like you say, one thread ain't gonna solve the problem that a 2 man system has always had.

But in CT, from my limited 4 year experience :) , its general practice that you come out.

And yes, its 127 feet from 1st-3rd. I haven't done math since the 11th grade, who knows where I got 144 from.

This is the only problem I have with your post Tim (not that you care :) )

You get to a position around B to make your call at first, more than 90 feet away from 3rd. As the play takes you to third, you take as many as four steps, and are now 60 feet away? More than 30 feet in 4 steps, and 3 seconds?

And now, you want the umpire to "continue to move towards third" and you won't be more than 45 feet from the call? So, make up your mind, out or safe, 60 feet away, on the dead run (not a good idea) and keep running to 45 feet after the play is over, and now make your call?

I'm not sure I follow your stealth movements... although I understand your point about this being BUs call to begin with.

Not trying to be a problem, just asking for clarification.

Hmm,
 

I guess I am too practical:

When there is a play at first base my "B" position (most likely) is located somewhere near the 1st base side of the mound. I don't make calls at first standing on the base.

If I am near the mound (and adjusting to make MY CALL at first) I am not within probably 20' of the base (as noted I am closer to the mound than 1st base) because I believe in angle over distance.

So when the play is made to third I am now only crossing over the mound (3 or 4 steps) and make the call.

And I certainly think the PU needs to stay on the first base lone longer than you do.

Regards,

Tuss,

I couldn't disagree more with your thinking on this. I never like to see the PU come up on the 2nd play in the infield. When I'm the Base Umpire, that's my job title. There are times when the PU should be at 3rd base. I would just like to see him there at those special times, and not because I can't do my job on the bases.

Tuss, if you are using correct mechanics on the bases, you will have no problem taking the second play in the infield. There is no strategic advantage to having the PU rotate up to cover 3b in this situation. I don't cover 3b in these situations as the PU and I don't expect my partners to either.

T, et al - I'm just having a hard time taking your words and visualizing them.

Does the following picture describe what you would do here? R2 (red square) Ground ball to 3rd (black circle) Move to where the yellow block is, make your call at first, then open the gate, move along the grey line, stop, then make your call at 3rd?

<img src="http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/5770/umpiredoodlekv4.png" border="0" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/></a><br/><a href="http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=213&i=umpiredoodlekv4.png"><img src="http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/5770/umpiredoodlekv4.5706c826c0.jpg" border="0"></a>

Must be the Mariners in town...Don't see too many fans in the upper decks.

Seriously..you have to stay around the working area behind the mound to get both plays, and as bu you have to get both plays...PU has responsiblity of an overthrow on the play at first - not a pulled foot, because bu should have angle to get that as well...

Tuss,

With R2, why would you be in B? You should be starting in C, so you just drift over toward 1st along with F5s throw, set as the ball is passing you, see the play, call it, take a drop step with the right leg, move toward the 3rd base line and let the ball turn you toward 3rd, set again, make the call.

You won't be coming from all the way over where you have the yellow square. You are calling the play at 1st from about right behind the mound, then drifting back the other way. Great angle for each play, and looks really sharp too!

~I'm working on this~
 

Tuss:

From your illustration:

I am located much more towards a direct line to home plate than you when there is a runner on 1st base only.

I would say 6' feet closer to the plate.

When the first play starts to occur I pause, read and react and make sure I move to a location that gives me the best angle possible for the play at first base.

This "most likely" moves be even more towards the plate (by fractions possibly).

As soon as the play is complete at first I then "open the gate" and get approximately to an area near the start of your line that lines up the play at third.

Of course that position is a "moving target" as I am again reading the throw for angle. IF I take my four steps then I am clearly on the third base side of the mound and no more than 60' from the call (sometimes closer) and I take the call HOK and then as I signal I move closer towards the play.

Contrary to that:

If the PU hold HIS position until the play is completd at first base and THEN releases there is no way he can be closer to third than I am.

This is the EXACT reason the PBUC had (originally) wanted the BU to make the call. PUs were leaving the play at first base to quickly and were not available for the pulled foot/sweep tag assistance at first base. Also remember that the PU has DBT over throw responsibility and needs to recognize that BEFORE he releases to third.

I am open to learning change but you (and the PBUC) has not come close to convincing me to change this mechanic.

This entire discussions in moot if there is R2 only so being in "C" it is even more obvious that the BU should take both potential calls.

Regards,

I agree that the answer can not be simple as you stated, the pro's can't make up their minds.

In going from state to state I've noted a difference, and in TX they were adamant that PU takes a second play (but that was years ago - might be different now)

The main thing is that the two umpires who are calling "be on the same page".

I see advantages and disadvantages either way, but not one way that is for certain "best"

Thanks
David

My opinion: Coaches recognize that the play at third is / can be trouble for either umpire. They'd rather have "help" at first (where you know there's going to be a play) than a possibly (but not guaranteed) better look at third (where there might not be a play).

Which is exactly the scenario in question. The "second play in the infield" is when there is R2 only. From C, there is no reason the BU can't get them both.

With 2 outs, I'm in a deep B...

Possible that a fast lefty could chop one down to third, R2 holds up not wanting to run into a tag, throw across, safe, back over to 3rd and we have a play.

Not to mention 2nd and 3rd, this exact play could happen, and I'm in a deep B there too. Ground ball to F5 who is playing back, R3 breaks for home on contact, team willing to trade an out for a run throws on to first, R2 breaks.

If you're saying to get both is easier from C, then you must not be getting to the same spot you would for the call at first if you started from a deep B.

I get to about the same spot... perhaps my next diagram will be from Ebbets Field :)

Why deep B? I guess I'm just old school. R2 only...C. R2 and R3...C. Outs not important. I just hustled to where I was supposed to be. The only time I ever used B (and not deep, just normal) was 1st base only or 1st and 3rd. Deep B is usually for 3 and 4 man mechanics, if you mean by the grass line.

~Sigh~
 

I would never teach nor position myself in "Deep B" while using two man mechanics.


We follow CCA that is slightly modified for high school baseball.

How in the heck to you call a pickoff at first from "Deep B"?

Regards,

Close Coverage Summary
 

R3 only ...C.
R2 and R3...C.
R2 only ...C.
R1, R2 and R3...C.
R1 and R2...C.
R1 and R3...B.
R1 only ...B.
No runners ... A

Are you saying that you want PU up at third on this play when there's R2 and R3?

[QUOTE=TussAgee11]With 2 outs, I'm in a deep B...

Might as well be in a deep sleep

No Bob, I was commenting on how being in B or C affects BU's ability to get both plays and how his positioning may change. Surely I don't want PU at 3rd when a run is coming in to score...

And Tim, I normally don't have to worry about a pick off at first with R2 and R3... :D

I believe we have hashed out the 2 outs moving back to B debate on here... that is where our rules and mechanics interpreter wants us (also our Varsity assignor).

And he only wants us in C with R2 only (unless there are 2 outs). Otherwise, go to a deep B...

So, I will do what I'm told. What other choice do I have?

Tuss, what is the reason they have you in 'deep' B vs. regular B?

The purpose of moving to B with two outs is to be closer to the obvious play at first. However, being in 'deep' B really puts you at a bad spot for a good angle on the play at first. Deep B is a 3 or 4 man mechanic when you don't have a call to make at 1b.

Sorry. I must have mis read. In any event, I don't think the starting position (B or C) has much bearing on this play. If the first move is to the working area, (as it should be), then the drop step will work fine to get the umpire to third.

Agreed. so, if BU can get both ends when there's R3, why can't he get both ends when there isn't? PU still has a job to do and can be waiting for a play at teh plate on an overthrow (and F3 typically has the worst arm in the infield).

Depending on your "stature" in the association, I agree you need to do what you're told.

I think all F4s need shoulder surgery. :cool:

So what is the correct 2 man MLB mechanic for this situation?

Careful who you say that around Mick;) .

Steve Sax comes to mind !!

To appease me? I was just wondering if you looked up the MLB 2 man mechanics or you were just making stuff up:confused:

Chuch Knoblauch?