Two Balk Questions-OBR
 

1. R1, pitcher pivots to throw to 1st, slips and is falling down but still "throws"/attempts to throw to 1st. Ball trickles towards 1st base but doesn't even make it to the cut out. Balk?

2. R1, RHP pitcher balks by "opening the gate" to throw to 1st. Overthrows first, R1 advances around bases to home and scores. Still a live ball becuase of play being made. How far can he advance, and when does he become liable for being putout.

1. No

2. He advances until he stops or is put out by the defense. He is liable to be put out at any point after he touches his awarded base (second) and attempts further advancement and is not touching a base, until he touches home, just like at any other time. There is no limitation on the number of bases he can advance, he just does so at his own risk. Rule 8.05(c) APPROVED RULING #1.

What is "opening the gate"? If he throws to first, how has the pitcher balked?

Pitch lifts front foot, as to going to home and swings all the way around to throw to first. Doesn't not move back foot either to step off or to make a turn. Just swings all the way around to throw.

As long as the "swing" is done in a fluid and continuous motion, and the pivot foot gains distance and direction to first, this isn't a balk. Although, I can't envision it being done without an ACL tear.


Tim.

I don't know about all this "opening the gate" BS, but my answer was for a balk on the pitcher whlie overthrowing to a base, in this case, first base.

It's a balk because of "lifts foot as going to home (sic)". As I read it, the lift was toward the "balance point" before F1 turned and threw to first.

A is not a balk; B is a balk. The second that his cleats on his left foot leave the dirt he has to go to the plate. It's a move normally associated with a delivery.

Huh,
 

Please explain this statement . . . it has me a little confused.

Regards,

I'm just some umpire, who was commenting on the situation of a right-handed pitcher making a move to first base. I don't know how you missed that part. The cleats leave the dirt reference was a simple symbol of the foot leaving the ground. And when a right-handed pitcher picks up his left (front) foot, and then does not deliver a pitch, but instead turns and throws to first, it is a balk. Why the confusion? And how is it not a balk?

No, we umpire according to the rules, and according to the rules, you are wrong.

Three things the rules state that any pitcher can do (From the rubber):

1. Pitch
2. Disengage
3. Step and throw to a base.

Please explain how he can perform #3 without lifting his foot off the ground.

He lifted his front foot and then threw to first. OK? I'm sorry that you guys decided to make a debate about the one part of this topic that not debatable ... whether scenario B is a balk.

So?

Ok,
 

Question to La Umpire Guy:

Let's keep it simple:

Are you saying that a right handed pitcher must disengage, do a jump-turn or do a jab step when attempting a pick-off at first base?

Even more elemental:

Are you saying a right handed pitcher cannot throw to first base, on a pipckoff attempt, from the set position when in contact with the pitcher's plate?

Regards,

This is just for the gentlemen here, like chuckfan1:

I will defer that in order to perform a legal pop move, the left foot leaves the ground and a delivery is not made. But it leaves the ground at the same time as the right foot. So, if the left foot leaves the ground first, or without the right, and there is not a delivery to the plate, it's a balk.

When Lou Brock stole a base, against most pitchers, including all those with a wide stance, he used the backs of the pitchers' knee joints as his trigger move. If he's stealing, as soon as the back of the left knee begins to bend, he bolts. This actually occurs an instant before the foot begins to lift. The same goes for the right knee being the first to move on a step-off move, alerting him to go back.

So if you think about it, even if the front leg begins to wiggle and a delivery is not made to the plate, it's a balk.

A: No
B: Please tell me how he can do that without A) lifting his left foot first, or B) stepping toward first.

Thanks,
 

LA Umpire Guy:

Thanks for the quick and succinct answer to my question.

This tells me everything I need to know about your post.

Regards,

As usual, a bunch of umpires can't agree on what constitutes a balk, or can't seem to explain why something isn't a balk.

So, please try to explain how a right-hander lifting one's left, or lead foot, WITH ONLY A RUNNER AT FIRST, without delivering a pitch, is not deception, and therefore a balk.

I think you are playing lawyer a little too much with "step directly towards a base".

Much like Tim C used to play lawyer with the the ol' "rub dirt on the white of the mitt and it isn't white anymore and therefore legal".

Traditionally, it is lifting the foot AND stepping towards the base that has to be satisfied. With lefties, it is almost impossible for them to lift their leg and NOT balk because lifting it causes the foot to go towards first base slightly. But, we don't play lawyer on that one, thus, we are not going to play lawyer on the righty lifting his foot and stepping directly towards first base. It IS a legal move, always has been, end of discussion. ;)

Oh, and get used to the constant bickering amoungst umpires on rule interpretations. The only reason it ends up being very confrontational on a BBS is that it isn't in "person" with people you usually know.

I guess we're reading it differently. I read it as a pitcher lifting his foot and beginning to "swing" toward first in a continuous motion. There was no mention of F1 "hanging" his knee to a balance point, nor was there a mention made of initial rotation of the free foot toward the plate.............


Tim.

L.A. your analogy sounds like that of a coach's, so let me go about it with you the same way that I do with them:

"Please stand here and show me how you can go from a set to stepping toward 1st base without lifting your foot. If you can, I will agree with you and call a balk on the pitcher."

Not one coach has been able to do it in almost 30 years. I give you the same option - film it and post it and I'm sure that we all will consider it.

Under your "reading" of the play, I agree -- and that also explains the rule to LAUmpire.

If the left foot (non-pivot foot) moves "immediately" toward first (as the knee and left hip also open toward first), then the pick-off is legal -- even though the left foot lifts first and the cleats clear the gorund.

If the left foot (and knee, and the hips stay closed) first moves toward third, then F1 cannot legally throw to first.

It's a debate that has raged since Al Gore invented the internet -- and all becuase of differeing views of the play in reader's mind's eyes of the words "lifts his foot."

Great!
 

Bob:

Thanks for clarification. I tried to get LA Umpire Guy to define exactly what he meant and I recognized that he was not talking about what I thought he was . . .

We all know through the JEA and Evans e-mails answers, Roders's kind answers via e-mail, Paronto's notes and the NFHS Case Book that a right handed pitcher with R1 only can indeed pick off at first base while in contact with the pitcher's plate.

As long as the movement with the left foot is distinct, quick and directional there is no problem. The problem lies when the RH F1 rasies his knee before going to first.

Simply lifting the "cleats" off the ground DOES NOT commit F1 to pitch . . . he, obviously, can still go to first on the pickoff as long as he establishes the three requirments listed above.

I was confused as to the verbiaged in the posts above.

Thanks again,

Regards,

Balk 101
 

Okay, now I'm confused. My interpretation is that the pitcher (on the rubber with an R1) may legally raise his non-pivot foot straight up before making a motion to first or the plate (is this the "balance point"?), and then throw to either first or home.

The only balk rule implicated here, I think, is OBR 8:05(a): "If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when - (a) The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his ptich and fails to make such delivery."


I thought the phrase "naturally associated with his pitch" was interpreted to mean any movement during his delivery that moved some part of his body (not counting the head) toward home. Meaning that merely lifting the non-pivot cleats off the ground was not sufficient to commit the pitcher to pitch. But if a shoulder or a hip or a knee or a foot made any significant (hello judgment!) motion toward home, then a pickoff attempt would be a balk.

This is why runners who take off for second with the first motion (lifting the foot) can get picked off. And if they go when the back of the knee buckles, they would really be jumping the gun.

The Evans balk video is not terribly specific about this, but does say that leaning toward home before going to first is a balk. He also says the knees will bend whether he is legally going to home or first. And he says that head movement is not considered the start of the delivery to the batter.

So what, if anything, is wrong or problematical about my interpretation? Any FED difference?

It's (aparently) the fault of the english language that this can't be properly explained / understood. (I say that becasue it's been tried many times on the boards without much success).

So, try this:

Suppose BR missed first on a double. Time is called. The defense wants to appeal. RH F1 takes the rubber and the ball is put back in play. F1 asumes a set position (why? who cares!). F1 turns, steps (step means lifts the foot slightly and puts in down in a position closer to) to first and throws the ball for the appeal.

That's approximately the move he can make from the rubber on a pick-off. Any earlier / additionl motion would prohibit F1 from throwing to first.

A. Balk. Throw has to have the possibility of getting the runner out. Throw does not reach the cutout area of the dirt and therefore could not get the runner out. Ball can be thrown wild and past the base, but has to at least reach that area and first base to be a legitament throw. If throw reaches the first baseman, he/she has also to be in a position to make a play on the runner or you have a balk.