Getting Tuss's EJ thread back
 

Tuss,

If he doesn't ask a question, why respond to him? That way you don't give him a chance to build steam. Your response that he was on the bag really amounts to nothing more than a sort of pissing contest, aka "he said, she said." Those things invariable turn into rabbit-season duck season...bang. With the umpire playing the part of Daffy Duck. If you make the call and move toward your next position and he says "he was off the bag" quietly as you implied, let it go keep moving. If he yells at you, try turning around holding your hand up as in a stop sign and saying something like "let it go." If he yells again say something like, "If you don't stop yelling, I will have to run you." This puts the ball in his court and you have warned him essentially twice.

This would have been an excellent way to handle it.

It is also almost exactly how Verbal Judo works.

Meh. The fact that the player chose to show him up by screaming it for a third time says he was tired and didn't feel like playing any more that day. When a player makes sure that the entire county hears it, he's publicly challenged the umpire and raised the stakes for himself.

"if you don't stop yelling, Junior, you'll go to timeout." :confused:


For a head coach, OK...maybe. For a jackhole adult-league player who seemingly wants to provoke, nowayinhell. Perfect recipie for an out-of-control game the rest of the way.



and yes, I know, I'll never work above rec-league, Tball, Jackhole Muni League, blah blah ;)

Actually, replying back to him is being argumentative. Of course he is going to escalate the situation.

:rolleyes:

Let's agree to disagree (A2D) here. If anyone 'questions' a call with an actual POV and not yelling to all of Calaveras County (not a general "YGBSM!") I'll use Garth's "Verbal Firearms" 5-word response (he.was.on.the.bag). For a player, that's enough. Then I'm walking to my position.

If I hear a player 'escalate', he might get TheLook or nothing. Once more.

A scream at my back, begging to depart? That's not 'argumentative' on my part, it's taking out the trash. Between us, only one of us is being paid to enforce the rules of baseball, and it ain't him. I'm not talking down a jumper from a tall building here.

/mycommentsonthistopic

:rolleyes: Obviously, you have never tried it.

Exactly!

When arrow thrown at head, move head.

Recall, in the original post, the player's initial reactions was not to yell at the umpire but to say "he's off the bag." If he yell's to start with you have to handle it differently. Maybe you start with "Let it go!" or "knock it off" stated vehemently with your hand up in the stop sign.

The question was could I have done something differently. Here we are trying to prevent the issue from getting to the third time. Not what to do after the third time. I think it important that we stick to the question at hand ie, could I have prevented this? The question was not what do you do when someone yells at you for the third time. The reason it is important is that different question require different answers. Recall in Tuss's situation he responded to the player not once, but twice hence my "rabbit season duck season" metaphor. So the starting point is no question asked no response needed and moving to your next position.

Other things equal, we would prefer not to run individuals. Which is not to say "let them sh!t on you," instead it's to say it seems to work better if we keep it from escalating to the sh!tting by addressing situations appropriately before they escalate.

So, LMan, lets address the question posed by Tuss here. We agree that when somebody yells for the third time he needs to be excused from further participation in reindeer games.

I know George Thompson.

Another case of someone taking something that had been around for decades, used in training in a number of occupations, giving it a name and claiming it as his own, then finding gullible people to believe he was presenting something more than common sense and getting them to pay for it.

Hope you enjoyed the book.

Similar escalation
 

Resist force with similar force. An arrow thrown at my head does not require a nuclear bomb be dropped on the thrower. Again, in Tuss's situation if you think there is a need to respond why not try just holding up your hand in the stop sign so that he knows you heard him?

I think most comments directed at umpires need to be addressed in some fashion. I liken it to the situation where a parent is on the phone and the child wants to speak to the parent. "Mom." says the child. If the parent ignores the child "MOm!" escalates the child. If the parent ignores again, "MOM!" shouts the child. If the parent ignores again, "MOM!!!MOM!!!" yells the child. At some point the parent yells back and we have a mess. If the parent lets the child know she heard him the first time, the kid typically goes away for a while. He may come back but it will not be to yell the second time. Start the process again. Participants are a lot like kids, sometimes that just want you to know that you heard them. If you address it early, it usually won't escalate. If it does, then you have run people.

If they know you can hear them, the generally don't bother you as much. There is a reason they are loud enough for you to hear them...because they want you to hear them. If you ignore them, they only get louder to assure themselves that you can hear them. If you continuously ignore them, they will get louder until you've let them know you've heard them or your sh!t splatters on your partner.

I did thanks.

NCAA thought enough of it to have it presented to soccer and baseball officials over the last few years at regional clinics. While what he is writing is certainly not anything earth shattering new, it is presented in a easy to follow format, and described well. It also works the first time you use it.

I smell envy.

Is it just me or...
 

is this thread a case in point?

I smell a farm.

Yup, WOBW. I'm out of here.

Of course you do. He got to pick your pocket and that of millions of other gullible types that are looking for something to make them feel superior before I did.

But he provides the same enouragement as P.T. Barnum. I haven't given up yet.

Bovine Excrement. The number one cause of Global Warming, btw.

Indeed! That is the most common thing I hear from coaches and players about how "discussions" are handled. They feel that they are not heard. They feel that the umpire feels "above" them shown by the ump not saying anything about their complaint.

Ignoring the complaint usually just makes things worse. You don't have to agree with their argument to simply say something like "I heard ya. Let's go.", or, "I hear what you are saying but........". Deflector statements. They acknowledge that you actually LISTENED to them without you having to agree. They also are never confused with arguing. Most of the time, no more needs to be said. If they do continue to yell, you can simply say "Hey, if you could lower your voice we can talk about it". NOW you seem approachable, and you have a chance to explain what you saw. If they continue to yell, you can say "If you stop yelling at me, you can stay in the game. If you continue, I will do something about it". If they continue, toss 'em. You have given them a chance to cool down, and if you did have to toss them, the ejection report writes itself, and you look totally like the person that was in charge, approachable, and just. You have NOTHING to lose by giving them a chance to settle down and only gain their respect.

Or....you can look like a hot head that nobody can talk to, with the quick trigger. THAT will certainly get you a lot of respect and the big games! :rolleyes:

From the original OP

Except for the guys wanting to get away from the wife / kids nothing can be further from the truth.

Adult mens league games are by far the worst games to do and in fact this year we do not service them (Thank God)

This is not your typical college or varisty HS player you are dealing with.

They Moan and Groan on just about everything

Therefore, when talking about adult mens league games it doesn't matter whether you ignore them or not - they will keep chirping and Chirping UNTIL you STOP the chirping by getting rid of the player.

As in the case with Rich, we all know who they are and it's pretty much the same "suspects" game after game.

Pete Booth

Pick my pocket?

Let's see:

VJ presented at NCAA clinic by a D1 umpire who is a cop too. He claims "You use this, you will have players/coaches THANKING you for how you handled things".

I immediately start to use it that very day in a soccer game. Keep a player in the game and deescalate a situation that would have normally been a HUGE blow up. After game, several players from both teams go out of their way to come over to me and shake my hand and say "Hey, that was great how you handled that".

I buy the book to learn more.

I have been PAID to present it to soccer referee's in Oregon.

My ejections in baseball are WAY down.

Players and coaches are glad to see me.

NO "out of control" situations since I started using it.

Yeah, I would say ol' George has "taken" me. :rolleyes: About the only thing he picked from my pockets is the inept way I dealt with things before!

If it were just you, it would be a good thread.

Let's see, if I remember the OP, here is my normal response.

Me - Called B1 out at first.
B1 - Speaking in a normal voice, "He was off the bag"
Me - Saying nothing, continue to my position.

As long as B1 keeps going to the dugout, we are okay. We each had our say but mine is the one that counts. This is the same response no matter what age I am officiating. Let's go a step further.

B1 - "I said he was off the bag, Mario"
Me - Hand Up "That's all chief. We are done here!"

Again, if all ends, that is it. Now let's go further.

B1 - Screams, "I said he was off the bag!"
Me - Still in my position - Point and hook - he had his chances, he need so to leave now.

I rarely have had a situation like this escalate to the last point. Most times, either the player finds his brain or his manager tells him to "Shut up and get in the dugout!" which suits me fine.

Let me take care of some house keeping first:

To Pete Booth

Maybe that is how it is in your area or the Adult Leagues that you know. But extrapolating that out to my situation seems too much of a blanket template to start all adult league situations with. Why not just take what I said at the start to be true, because it is. The league is comprised mainly of men who are content to get away from the family for a Sunday morning double header, have a couple of beers in the parking lot after the game with some sandwiches, and go home. Most of them are totally relaxed, having been around baseball most of their lives, at levels a lot more important than an over 30 league. They, on the whole, don't flip a s*** when something doesn't go their way.

Sure, there are usual suspects, but every league, adult, youth, HS, softball, badminton has those. But don't read every situation thinking it is like one that could happen at your local field just because they are both adult leagues.

Okay, now to the important stuff....
-------------

First off,

I hinted at this in my OP on the other thread, where I could have gone wrong was when I replied back to him the 2nd time the same way. It turned it into a pissing contest. Originally, I thought perhaps he didn't hear me the first time, as I was speaking softly and calmly, a little bit below his own level. Looking back on it, this just turned it into, as I said, a pissing contest.

I here what you guys are saying, it is something that I learned a great deal about at a basketball clinic several months ago. Let them know you're listening.

I guess some of the reason why I didn't utilize this technique was because it was a player. At that clinic, we talked about coaches (in basketball). How does this technique transfer to a player? Its something I haven't been trained in, and don't know anything about. Surely, it can't be the same.

-----------------

Second off,

I do realize that I turned it into a pissing contest. I messed that part up pretty good. Obviously, it didn't turn out well. Hindsight is 20/20, maybe its better that he blew his fuse so I know what NOT to do next time. Just adds to my game management experience.


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Third off,

Those who, in the other thread, hinted that they would just ignore a scream at you at a player's top of his lungs (vicious screaming, neck muscles tensing up, I mean, REALLY coming at you), wow. I believe my EJ to be a good one in penalizing unsportsmanlike behavior and keeping decorum, I did from the start. My OP was looking for info on, overall, what I could have done different. Thanks to those who have responded.

Perhaps not the best EJ because I had to do it though, as has been pointed out in the thread. But once it got to that point, we all agree that the booger needs to be picked, yes?

-----------------

In closing, so I can continue to learn from the thread.

1) How does the idea of "letting them know they're being heard" differ between a player and a manager? What are some possible conversations that need to go different ways, and at what time, because somebody is a player as opposed to a coach?

Thanks

Ok, here's my 2 cents. My feeling is, if you felt that your EJ was good, why bring it to this forum for reinforcement? Obviously you felt the EJ was warranted, so who am I to disagree with you? I wasn't there. Would I EJ'd the participant in this situation, I don't know.

Our job is NOT to keep individuals in the game, our job is to CONTROL the game as a whole. You do that by taking care of problems (it's called umpiring) that need taking care of, and not ignoring them. How you do that depends on your skill set and the tools you have at your disposal. The EJ should not be your only tool. As younger umpires mature and their tool kit becomes more diverse, they have better tools at their disposal and their EJ rate tends to lower.

I don't think it necessarily should differ. Most of the stuff we get in baseball is long distance sniping from dugouts. In that case, a glance at the dugout will let them know you can hear them. (By glance I do not mean whip your head around whip your mask off and stare the dugout down. I mean a casual look toward the dugout with your mask on if you are working the plate and they are chirping about balls and strikes. If I'm working the bases and I hear something about a balk, I will often just touch my ear signifying "I hear you." Again the movements are casual. Depending on my relationship with the team sometimes I will say just audible to the "offender" "I hear you" in a casual tone. If they respond with the "don't look in here!" nonsense. Hold up the stop sign. Remember if they are speaking loudly enough for you to hear them they want you to hear them. Think about all of the things that are said in dugouts that we can't hear.

Immediate emotional responses, like the one in your situation, can be dealt with in much the same way. When the runner declares his belief, you can just glance at him, but generally, if it does not involve immediate histrionics, and a question is not asked, moving on to your next position is likely to be the best response.

There is a difference between arguing with and "entertaining" participants. While managers (head coaches) are allowed to argue, players and assistants generally are not. So don't engage them in argument. That doesn't, however, mean that you should not allow them to address you in any way shape of form.

Do you really think so? Given that it likely could have been avoided? I'm not saying that he didn't need to go for his behavior, but if we are the proximate cause for the behavior is that really a good ejection?

Tony - thanks for the stuff about player vs coach, long distance sniping vs in close stuff. That is the stuff that I need to hear more and more about in the years to come. Your post is certainly a good start.

As for good EJ bad EJ, and perhaps this will clear up the coach at Louisville, RPatino's, concerns;

To start, I thought it was a good EJ in the sense that he needed to be EJ'd after the yelling spasm. Perhaps we didn't get there the best way though.

Now, I still think its a good EJ in the sense that he needed to be EJ'd after his neck vein popped in 2. But I also think I could have done things differently and we wouldn't have gotten to that point.

If that makes it a bad EJ, then so be it. The way I'm viewing it is a warrented EJ after some missed game management opportunities on my part. Next time, I will explore other avenues, and if he blows a gasket again, I'll have to dump him again then too. And then I'll have to tweak again for the next time, and again and again...

I'm not meaning to sound belligerent, I am soaking in what you're saying, in fact, I want to hear more. I wish I could do some roleplaying excercises (the umpiring kind) or something. I feel like I just have very limited practice at the elite level in dealing with this stuff.

Only time I get practice is when this crap happens, then I have to come here and post to learn about what should be done next time.

[QUOTE=TussAgee11]Let me take care of some house keeping first:


From the original OP

So they do not flip a switch huh?

I do not care where you umpire, mens adult leagues are MENS ADULT LEAGUES and you have your fair share of head cases.

You would not see this at the Collegiate, HS varsity or Legion level.

If a player did scream like you mentioned above behind my back at a HS Varsity or Legion Game my next statement would be

"skip we have a substitution correct"

and the Problem would be solved.

The aforementioned technique DOES NOT work in a Cry Baby League such as an adult mens league game.

As you continue to umpire for this so called "calm league" you will encounter more and more of these type problems.

Game management skills used at a College, HS Varsity or Legion level game simply do not work when it comes to rec league type games such as the mens adult leagues. They are lax in dealing out punishments etc.

I agree with Ozzy. You should not have engaged the player PERIOD. Simply walk away and as long as the player is not acting like a lounatic it's time to play ball. As soon as he "took it a step further" by screaming it's time to go.

If you did not engage the player in the first place would the incident have escalated as it did - we do not know but as mentioned it does not surprise me when it comes to mens adult leagues and NO it is not just in my area.

Pete Booth

I agree with Pete, 100%. Most game management techiques don't work with Men's Adult League or similar type games. The simple reason is, there are no consequences for bad behavior. The consequence of the last blow up I got to "manage" was one less veteran umpire to work their leagues. They couldn't pay me enought to baby sit them.