Asking partner for help...
 

Had an interesting one tonight but not at all uncommon. R1... B2 squares to bunt... pitch comes high and tight to a left hand batter. I am PU... all I see is pitch come in...I see the batter make a defensive manuver to get out of way. I hear a distinct "click" but also see the batter shake hand as he bails out. Catcher stood up to catch high and tight pitch which completely blocks my view. I shout "balls dead"... and leave everyone where they are. I bring in my partner who is in B for a quick conference to see if he saw anything definitive. He says "no". I come back, foul ball, strike 2. 3rd base coach chews a little stating there is no excuse to ask for help on that and that I booted the call. He obviously wanted the award of first base. Batter went on to single so it didn't matter in the end. Question,,,was I wrong for asking or should I have made a decision and stuck with it?

first off, call TIME. i don't know where this ball's dead thing started or how it perpetuates, but it's obnoxious. now, on to your situation. seeing as you did all you could do in listening and then reading the batter's reaction (which appear to me to point in opposite directions) i don't have any issue with you going to see if your partner has anything to add to what went on. what i would suggest, is that after speaking with your partner, you go directly to the coach/manager that is not going to benefit from your decision. upon reaching him, inform him,

"skip, here's the deal. the catcher stood up in front of me and completely blocked my view of the batter. i heard the distinctive sound of the ball hitting the bat, but, since i was blocked out, i talked with my partner to see if he saw anything that would result in sending your guy to first. he didn't, so we're going with a foul ball because the clink of that bat is all the info i've got to go on cuz i was blocked out."

my reasoning for this is that one of the skippers is going to be pissed no matter what you do. by going over to him and explaining what just happened you are eliminating the scenario of informing him long distance; which in turn is going to result in him arguing long distance. that will be followed by either you approaching him or, more likely, him approaching you to discuss it further. if you do it in the fashion that i suggested above, you have eliminated the intermediate long distance argument that will inevitably take place before the face to face argument.

now, no doubt he is still going to be pissed, but, you have already informed him of what happened, what you heard, what your partner saw, and that you did everything you could to get his guy to first base if he did indeed get hit by the pitch. furthermore, you've already begun the conversation at close range and in a civil tone without the raising of voices simply to be heard from 100 feet away. if he wants to talk/argue a little at close range, he can probably have a bit of slack on his leash. however, if he tries to go ballistic on you, you've got the, "we've done everything we could do to get the call right" bullet in your gun. obviously you'll let him have his say, but, if he begins to overstep use that bullet and get the game moving again.

for a demonstration point of view, have a role playing conversation with yourself in both styles. first try doing it where you meet with your partner then just call a foul ball. now you've gotta talk loud or yell down at him to tell him what you have, or to tell him to stop yelling and just talk to you, followed by getting together with him to discuss after both of your guards are up cuz you've already gotten a little heated.

now try it the way i suggest and see how the conversations differ. role playing is fun.

i had a similar situation to this last week in an indy game in nashua, nh. slidercurvething in the dirt to a LH batter. the catcher went down, forward, an in (toward the batter) to block it, and blocked my view of the ball in the process. i knew it hit something, but i didn't know what cuz i couldn't see. i called it a ball. the batter turned around and said it hit him in the foot. i immediately told him, "i was blocked out, but i'll go ask those guys." without anyone asking me to go get help, i called the other 2 guys in, told them what happened, and asked them if they had anything to add. neither of them did. i went back to the plate and told the batter what we had, and the game went on. the skipper didn't even come down to ask what was going on cuz it must have been blatently obvious by our actions. he did ask me the next inning on his way back out to coach third, and i told him exactly what had happened and what was said. his response? "that play sucks. you did what you could." maybe he was just in a good mood. who knows?

I had almost the identical situation a couple of weekends ago. Batter squares to bunt, ball is burrowing inside. I lose sight of the ball as it looks to be heading straight for the batters midsection. I hear a sound, and BR crumples to the ground holding his face. I immediately call "TIME" and head out to my partner. I ask him what did he see, and he told me, "Batter squared to bunt, the ball hit the bat and then into the batters face". I go to 3rd base coach/manager and inform him. "I have a foul ball, we have strike one". Not one peep from either team, batter is replaced and we play on.

Good advice from Bobby.

Agreed.

Different scenario but curious as to how you would handle this -

2 man crew, I'm PU, partner in B with R1. Pitch comes in high and outside, batter starts a swing and checks. I have a clear view and call "no he did not, Ball!"

DC tells catch to have me appeal to my partner. Catch asks for an appeal and I respond to him and the coach "coach, my partner is in the middle of the field and doesn't have a better angle than I do."

As we settle in for the next pitch, Coach demands I ask for an appeal, says it is his right. I respond "Coach, I already explained why there is no point in doing so, let's play ball."

Coach continues to mutter under his breath, nothing loud enough for me to understand, and we go on without incident.

Would you have gone ahead and asked for the appeal? This wasn't a case of me getting blocked, blinking or in some other way missing the attempt and needing help. Should I have just quickly asked my partner to get his safe call so we can keep the game moving?

since you failed to mention a rule code i will answer for OBR. you HAVE to. it's not an option. for any other rule code, whether it is required or not, yes, you should have gone. it makes you look like a stubborn SOB if you don't. what's the harm in going?

Exactly right. Why wouldn't you take an extra strike if offered one?

NCAA and OBR, you MUST ask for help if you are requested to do so. FED is not required. However, my experience has been that going for help is about the easiest thing you can do in this situation. Why would you not want to do things the 'easy way'?

I would avoid saying that (bolded above) even though it's the truth.

It's simple....
If asked to appeal the check swing, do it.
Your partner should know well enough to go with your call if you sold your call well when you made your call. In addition, your partner knows he's not in the ideal position to see the check swing so unless he's absolutely certain you got it wrong, he should make the same call you made.

Bobby good advice on the original situation. Sometimes crap happens out there and you just gotta go with the best info you got.

Don't make it up and use your help when you have to. Then before the coach can say squat, you have already addressed the situation the best way possible. If at that point he wants to still stay and watch the game so be it. If he is going to get ugly after handling it that way, just calmly send him to his room.

Good Night Coach!!!

As for disputing whether or not to go for help. Follow the rules and always get a strike or out anyway you can.

[Simply call the pitch a ball no need to add "No he didn't go". When you call the pitch a ball it is now OBVIOUS that he didn't go otherwise you would have called the pitch a strike.

On the flip side the PRO mechanic if you call the pitch a strike on a check swing is to point at the batter and indicate it is a strike. You can also add "he offered"

As others mentioned simply go to your partner. What's the BIG deal. It takes all of 10 seconds.

Personally I do not care what my partner calls. I trust his judgement and when I point to him I simply want him to give me what he's got plain and simple.

Also, with the exception of FED and some youth leagues, OBR / NCAA you MUST go. FWIW I do the same in a FED game.

Pete Booth

Pete, A Question
 

When I went to pro school in the Dark Ages, we were taught to say: "No he didn't" if you were the PU.

Is this a change in MLB or MiLB mechanics, or is that just your practice?

I personally like to say "No he didn't" since I am selling my check swing call, and maybe dropping by partner a hint on an appeal. A good partner will overrule me if I am wrong, so why worry? Selling my call with voice will save me and my partner trouble on occasion.

the flip side of what? as is mentioned in the post above mine, the mechanic taught at the umpire schools (was and still) is, "ball, no he didn't go."

Is it acceptable to call time and approach your base partner to see if there was catcher's interference?

Sure, don't you call time on catcher's interference?? Lah me!!

I tell my partner in pregame (regardless of rule set), I am automatic on check swings. I come to you if they ask, no matter where you are. So be alert and give me a strike back if I missed one. You might be surprised how many times you get a strike from your partner. And the defensive coach is not ticked because you would not go to your partner, which by rule you must in OBR.

To start with, if you are doing OBR or NCAA, you had better go for help when asked because it is in the rules. FED is wishy-washy but I teach that it is better to go and avoid the problems.

Now as far as your partner being in the middle of the field, you seem to have a very low opinion of the people that you officiate with. I don't care what position the BU is in, he should be able to make a call on a checked swing. If he cannot, he shouldn't be on the field.

Furthermore, I teach umpires to loose that "you better go with me or walk home" Bull$hit! The Rats aren't stupid, so if asked for an appeal, give what you have, not what your partner has. Beside, why not take another strike? Oh, that's right! You are upset because you said "Ball! No he didn't go!" then your partner rings up the batter. We can fix that too! Just say "Ball!" and leave it at that! If they want an appeal, they will ask and you did not put yourself out on a limb that you partner can cut off and make you loose your pride!

Why do we umpires persist in perpetuating this total misnomer? It is CATCHER OBSTRUCTION!! Not catcher interference.

Only FED uses the (sensible) term 'catcher obstruction'. In Canada, they use OBR-based rules, in which the term 'catcher interference' is correct.

Depends on the circumstances. For most "common" CI, I find it hard to believe that BU would have a better view than PU.

Makes absolutely no sense.

You are PU and say Ball No he didn't go

You then are asked to go to your partner for help

Now your partner is in a bind. If your partner rings up a strike he now made you look bad because you added the caveat "NO he didn't go" which is more emphatic then simply saying Ball. IMO, that is the crux of the OP. The PU gave an EMPHATIC "No he didn't go" so if he goes to his partner, hopefully his partner will mimic his call.

To each his own but if your partner gives an EMPHATIC call and you give the opposite call makes the team look bad.

Pete Booth

Interference is an act by the offense (or - rarely - by an umpire). Obstruction is an act by the defence. How can "catcher's interference" be the correct term, regardless of which rule book is used? I understand that "catcher's obstruction" is commonly used, but that doesn't make it correct.

Because that's what OBR calls it. See 6.08(c) Comment.

If you don't like, call MLB and the union and revise the CBA. ;)

Heh. I would love to see this in person. :D

Thanks for all the comments; part of my reluctance is because one of our senior guys that oversees a number of the fields is passionately against asking for check swing help when the partner is in the middle of the field. But you're right, what is the harm in doing it and avoiding arguments.

In my assocaiation, we were instructed back in the late 80s or early 90s to call, "Ball," and to drop the "No, he didn't go" part. The reason given was because it made the PU look like a boob when the BU overruled the call by saying, "Yes, he did" on appeal.

I like the way we were originally taught, which is to say, "Ball, no he didn't go" when we were certain that the batter didn't offer, and then not ask for help no matter how the defense begged. This way, the PU's call stood, and the defense could go pound sand.

The problem was that the PU (it happened to me a couple times) would say, "Ball, no he didn't go" and then the defensive coach would insist that you check with the BU. Sure enough, BU's were overruling the calls, making the PU look horsesh!t. The ones who overruled me got it wrong, because I wouldn't say "No, he didn't go" unless I was 100% certain.

I like an extra strike as much as the next guy. One strike closer to the end of the game. But this asking for help when help isn't necessary can lead to disaster if you have an incompetent BU reversing your calls and making you look bad.

Saw it last August at the !4U USSSA Elite 24 World Series , which is generally considered to be the biggest tournament of the year for this age group. Championship game, four man crew, the stadium at Disney Wide World of Sports, R2, R3, 2 outs. Catcher interferes, weak grounder to short, F6 throws to first, but first baseman has already walked away and B/R isn't running because time has been called-- by part of the crew.

It took 45 minutes to re-start the game, because the crew couldn't decide what to do. They did spend 10 minutes off the field, evidently in phone conversations. Ultimately they scored the two runners, and placed B/R at second base.

One good thing about talking 45 minutes to reach a decision: there was no comment of any kind from either team. They just resumed play.

Wow. I wonder whom they called. It sure wasn't Bob Jenkins. :rolleyes:

First off, I don't care if we get an extra strike out of it. I just want to get it right, whether I'm PU or BU.

A technique I tell my partners is if I come up "softly" to you on an appeal, that means there is no way in hell he went. I'll often times delay my own point after the catcher's point, won't make it crisp, and will not include a LOUD, "Did he go?" I might also add a step to the side before I make my point.

If I'm truly in the dark, as soon as catcher points, I'm a beat behind him. My left hand is alot crisper with the mechanic and my "Did he go?" can be heard clearly by everyone. That is when I need help from BU, and he knows the difference.

Works well.

I'll tell you that I'll give you what I have either way. I don't believe in not changing a partner's call in this situation.

this is not a secret to players and coaches at higher levels. if you do that you very well may be creating a lot of unnecessary crap for yourself.

Of course it's alway good to make a ruling and stick with it, but of course it's also fine to go for help when it's needed.

Did F2 catch the ball? Did you hose the D outta of "foul tip?"

Heard a noise and saw the batter shake his hand and killed it, that reaction seems like you felt it struck the batter.
Why a foul ball?
HTBT but, what did you think it was? Why did you "call time" (hint, hint) like it struck him?
Instead of "foul ball", like you wound up ruling.

Because: 1. (Defensive players) obstruct a "baserunner.)
2 "interferes with a batter".
I've no idea why FED misquotes this..
nor why anyone would bye into it?? (Kidding there, relax..)

OBR:
INTERFERENCE
(b) Defensive interference is an act by a fielder which hinders or prevents a batter from hitting a pitch.

OBSTRUCTION is the act of a fielder who, .........., impedes the progress of any "runner."

As for the dinosaur that promotes "you can't call that from B or C" just that, a dinosaur..

If I "need" help, I have beaten the D to the punch, and my partner is ready (or he will walk his, ah, er, um, self home).

I would announce "No, he didn't go" on a bunt situation only.

It hasn't caused any crap yet...

I only do it when it is deathly obvious that the batter didn't go, and the manager/catcher are just grasping for anything they can get. Used just in case partner had a bug in his eye or something ;)

If there is a 1% chance that he could have gone, I'll gladly get some help. But sometimes, coaches/catchers know he didn't go and want the appeal anyway.

...or, "He didn't go, DID HE??":cool:

The rule is intended to provide an honest second opinion. I ask my partners to do just that.

That type of "secret signal" went out a long, long time ago. It's now only used by those who are old-smitties. Don't be one of them.

~Sigh~
 

Ask this yoyo if he'll send me a PM and I'll explain to him that he is either to dumb to umpire (i.e. does not understand the checked/unchecked swing issue) or doesn't have enough guts to make the call (or have his umpires have the courage).

I HATE people that say you can't make this call from inside.

I never say: "No, he didn't go!"

Regards,

Added Note:

After reading some of the posts by our younger umpires (not Canadaump BTW) I believe in the axiom:

"Children should be seen and not heard."

I hate secret signals. If I go to you "give me what you got". What's the big deal.

I guess the big deal about going to your partner is you have to do it even if you know you are 100% correct. Where else in the game does this happen?

(turning smart *** on) If its "smittyish" or "old-timer" to have that secret signal, then I guess I was trained by a smitty old-time umpire who works NCAA ball and is considered the best umpire in our association :confused: (smart-*** off).

If it is actually wrong to do this, then I'll stop. I don't understand why it's wrong, I think it's wrong that you have to go to your partner by rule, I think it's wrong that your partner could overturn the call that you know you had right.

I'll always ask if asked, even for appeasement purposes, not only because of my training but because of the rule (at least in OBR). But it don't mean I gotta agree with it!

And, I don't agree with not having double secret probation signals in some circumstances. I'd love to hear where or why this started becoming smitty-ish, or why the mindset on this changed.

Honestly, not trying to be stubborn. Because of the comments made here I will no longer come up softly on a check swing appeal. I just am curious to know why or how this mindset started, and the rationale (so perhaps I can convince others in the association to follow suit...)

Game 1 of not coming up softly begins in an hour and 30 mins, so I better scoot... probably about Game 10 since I became a "peeker" :)

-Tuss

Using secret signals to tell your partner not to disagree is just a way to circumvent the rule you dont like. How many different threads on rules have there been where ones have disagreed w/a rule but had to abide??? What if each one comes up w/ some signal to counteract it?
I guess I'm just not smart enough, considering that I work w/ multiple partners, and besides the normal pregame, would probably have trouble remembering a special thing my PU said, especially if it had to do with speed of a mechanic...I give what I see......

Thanks Tee. You can even see me for free now that I've posted a video of me umpiring.

I care. If I missed a strike I want it back. As I mentioned earlier, I cover this in pregame, if they ask I come to you automatically so be alert. And I want your honest opinion.

Ethics is not level related.

How is it wrong to follow the ruled?

It was back when we decided that it was coaches who could cheat, not umpires.

Let me clarify what I'm asking.

If I'm PU, and I am 100% sure that the batter didn't swing, and now coach wants to appeal, how is granting the appeal ensuring that we are getting the call right? I know I had it right, and maybe my partner is 50/50 the other way on it. So now we're taking the call from somebody who is 100% sure and giving it to somebody who is 50/50 on it.

The numbers may be exaggerated, and perhaps this doesn't happen when working at a very high level as a professional umpire. But with some of the clowns in our association, I get very nervous on a check swing appeal when I know the batter didn't go. Perhaps if I'm working with a veteran I'm not as nervous.

I know I'm not reinventing the wheel here or anything, I guess I'll just never understand why the rule is that you MUST go to your partner.

And, for the record, didn't have a check swing appeal tonight :) Game 1 of post secret signals went just fine.

Was just thinking about this more.

I guess it really doesn't matter if I understand it or not. The only way it would matter is so I could explain it to other people, but with the way I'm thinking about it now, no explanation would really work. There must be something at the core of my umpiring soul that is making me think about this issue in this manner... if anybody wants to address that be my guest; I'll be getting a Tarot reading tomorrow and will inform you all of how it goes.

Good night.

-Tuss

Tuss, I don't know what is so hard about this whole thing! You call what you see and the defense asks for an appeal. If you are working OBR or NCAA you have to by rule and for FED, you should. It the rule - we don't make the rules, we enforce them! The coaches know this and in a way, they have a right to ask. When they do, we have a duty to go to our partner.

Which brings me to the "double secret, probation Santa Clause" signals. Listen, when I am on the bases, I have more than enough $hit to deal with out there! I get enough BS from players and coaches who don't agree with the interference or out call. I have to listen to coaches pi$$ and moan constantly about F3 pulling his foot and I have to deal with acrobatic outfielders that feel they have to drop and roll with every catch attempt while I am tied to the infield grass with an invisible leash! Then I have to deal with the "Pedro want-to-be" on the mound sticking his fingers in his mouth searching for that elusive lunger to place on the ball so he can be just like his idol. Along with this, I have to pay attention to your signals telling me if you are staying home or taking third base, we have an IF situation or a time play. And on top of all this, you want me to watch for a "soft or hard rise" from you? :eek: I'll tell you what, keep your soft & hard rise for your "intamate other", I'll just give you what I have on the checked swing while I deal with my indicator - yeah my indicator - because I'm old, have CRS and I am having trouble staying awake because F1 can't hit the zone to save his life and if the 3rd base coach gives me any more $hit I'm going to dump his a$$!!!!!!! :D

It may just be that I only have so many brain cells remaining, but an old and wise umpire gave me the best advice I ever received..........Keeping it simple, always benefits the CREW.

For me this makes both circumstances easier. If it's an older established partner I'm used to, I have a pretty solid idea of what he's looking to me for (and even 99% of the old timers just want what I have) if it's a newbie, or its HS season and I'm working with some less experienced guys I'm keeping it easy for me, and for him. Most coaches won't get to worked up over this call being switched if that's the case, you will usually hear more whining from the stands if from anywhere.

The Less I have to worry about looking for from my partner the more attention I can pay to the detail of the game that can and WILL get me in trouble. It runs paralell to the "expected call" scenario's. If a simple checking with your partner will keep the rats in their cage why not make it easier on both of us? I think in the past there was more of a tenor that allowing a partner to change that call would weaken the Plate Man's influence, I have to say the game has moved forward in peoples attitudes about this particular call and the acceptance of what might have been seen by a different set of eyes. My 2 pennies worth.
Tom

Dude, you're lucky I hadn't poured my coffee yet or you would be owing me a new keyboard, as I would have Asnered the coffee all over it.:)

With apologies to Tee...Ozzy I think that ties for the best post on the internet. :D

http://ibewwireman.com/smf/Smileys/L...ys/applaus.gifhttp://ibewwireman.com/smf/Smileys/L...ys/applaus.gifhttp://ibewwireman.com/smf/Smileys/L...ys/applaus.gifhttp://ibewwireman.com/smf/Smileys/L...ys/applaus.gifhttp://ibewwireman.com/smf/Smileys/L...ys/applaus.gif

Great post, Ozzy!

Aside from the usual stuff when working with a partner pregame etc. there are three more important rules: TRUST YOUR PARTNER, TRUST YOUR PARTNER AND TRUST YOUR PARTNER. Secret Signals imply that you don't trust your partner.

I'ver NEVER worked with a partner (I've had many over the years) that had secret signals. If one ever suggests this.............. "he's getting what I got".

Must be my week to keep steppin' in stuff.........after tracking the posts related to my OP about a check swing appeal and the consensus that if a coach asks, you gotta do it, this is what I get last night:

15U, I'm PU, no outs, R1 and R2. Medium fly hit to right, I tell my partner that I've got R2 to 3rd if he goes. Partner slides from C toward B to watch the catch and R1. Everything is good so far.

F9 makes the catch and throws to 1st to catch R1 who had gone to "halfway" and is now scrambling to get back. Throw is off line (toward 2nd) and bang-bang. My partner calls R1 out and what happens............OC at 1st starts screaming that F3 pulled his foot, and you know what comes next............OHC yells for his team to appeal to "the other blue" (me, standing more than halfway down the 3B line). I turn to look at the OHC (in 3rd base dugout) as my partner calls Time; then the OHC notices where I am at and says "well, forget that". Meanwhile, I'm thinking........"wonder what the boys will say on the board when I post this sitch tomorrow!"

I knew the play at first was happening, but as it was, R2 was tagging for a move to 3rd if the ball got by 1B so I didn't really see the actual call.

And if the OHC had gone ahead and asked for the appeal, my partner and I should have done what?

Do not appeal, stick with the out call. The should have had an angle to see whether or not he pulled the foot at first.

1. As plate umpire you can't help out on the play. You have the play at third and are way out of position.

2. To appease the OHC get together (be sure noone can hear) and stick with the original call.

OHC thinks you checked. DHC doesn't care because nothing has changed.

PU to coach: "Not my call."

The End.

I'm with you guys, I wasn't in position to see the call so couldn't help. But it got me thinking with all the "if they ask, you gotta appeal for help whether you want to or not" posts on the check swing. What is so different here.

On the check swing OP, my partner was in B and not really in position there either to rule on a non-check that I knew I had not missed (it wasn't close to being a swing). That coach was being a rat by trying to force the issue and not accepting my explanation that partner wasn't in position to make a ruling. But doesn't the same philosophy apply here too? If you aren't in position to rule and the coach still asks, do you still have to go to your partner?

Don't want to sound argumentative, just looking for guidance -

Fritz - I believe that the argument may come down to the fact that partner in B has a better look at a check swing then the home plate umpire.

I'm not going to argue that BU in B or even C gets a good enough look on a check swing, even good enough to overrule PU at times. Any umpire that is worth a damn can get a decent to good look at a check swing in B or C.

I just hope that BU doesn't "get a strike back" that PU KNEW wasn't there to begin with...

Those who participate in schools... is the idea of PU taking the strike call right away being emphasized more? Or does it just seem that at the MLB level the plate umpire is getting more strikes on those check swings rather than balling the pitch and then appealing?

your responsibility to be a 3B ends when the throw goes to 1B. if R2 advances now it is no longer on the fly ball, it is on the throw. when the throw from F9 was released, you should have read immediately that there was going to be no play at 3B and retreated to the plate. granted, you probably still wouldn't have been able to see it cuz you'd still be tracking back to the plate area, but, by the time they realized that they wanted an appeal, you'd be back at home and would not have to deal with the, "well, forget that," comment from the coach who sees you standing up the 3B line waiting for a play that was never going to happen.

I respectfully beg to differ. Seeing my partner move closer to 1B for the play, and me already being down the line and watching R2 tag up, I think the better positioning would be to stay where I was in case R2 takes off on the dropped throw or chaos at 1B. If I leave at that point, I move back home for a play that is a long way from happening (R2 going to 3B and then home), or a view of the play at 1B while on the run - and leave my partner to suddenly swivel for a play all the way across the diamond.

IMHO, staying put is the smarter move until you see what happens next.

Lot's of good insight on this one. I am glad I posted it originally. I know we got the call right but as shown here with some of the posts, there is always an opinion. During the season I was BU in a D3 game and unbeknown to me I had 2 evaluators in the stands since I have been nominated for move up next season. I had a situation with R1 and R2 so I was in shallow "C". Hard ground ball to F6 so runners are going hard. F6 charges hard and I see R2 hold up on his advance to 3rd just a bit to avoid the INT. F6 takes the ground ball off his glove into his chest and it bounces forward into the path of R2. R2 then jumps over ball in very close proximity to F6. I signal safe so both teams know I saw it. F6 picks it up and retires BR at 1st. After game during dress out, 1 evaluator asked why I didn't call INT on R2. I explained what I saw and stated that he did what he was supposed to have and the possible INT came on a misplayed GB by F6. He told me that was correct and the fact that I gave safe signal was right on. The other evaluator disagreed and wanted the INT called. Those 2 were still arguing when I left 20 minutes later. Just goes to show you that it's not as black and white as some people think.

Why do this? Have some stones and tell the coach that it was MY call, I saw it, I do not need to check with anybody. If you are not looking for your partner's input, then don't get together. All you are doing there is giving the coach someone else to b!tch at. It is not your job to appease anyone.

Why does this seem so personal with you? I'd bet there's not one of us who hasn't had the BU answer in the affirmative when asked if the batter swing at the pitch. Adjust the count and move on. Jeez-o-pete! It's not like your manhood is being questioned.

Walt - I don't know why I've struck a chord.

I've said if PU was unsure if the batter swung, then he should always get help.

I do not agree that it is a good idea to ask for an appeal to another umpire when the original, calling umpire knew he was right. We wouldn't do it in any other sitch, but the rules say we do it in this one. Why? I'm still not sure.

It has nothing to do with my ego or manhood being challenged as PU. If I think my partner may have information I didn't have, I'm always glad to get it. I don't see how all check swings fit this bill though.

I'll fade into the sunset, we're just talking in circles.

Fritz, how far up the 3b line where you? You should be no more than 3/4 up the line, as the ball and runner never arrived at 3b. If you were in the cut-out you were wrong. You should be drifting back toward the plate. Your responsibility was R2's advance on the tag, not a second throw in the infield. The BU needs to get both sides of that play.

long from happening or not, it is your next responsibility. your partner having to swivel is his JOB. he should be in the working area for that play at first, so it's not difficult to read the play going to third if it develops. he lets the ball turn him, gets a step or two, and has an angle on the play. if you stay there cuz it's "easier" and somehow a play develops at the plate, are you next going to tell me that he is to rotate down and cover it? and who's now got the runner from first going to second if he had called him safe on the pulled foot instead of out? you gonna bust in there and take it since he's going to cover your play at he plate? patchwork umpiring at it's finest.

1) The plate umpire has multiple things to watch -- and they might be happening at different locations.

2) Sometimes what a plate umpire "knows for certain" isn't what happened.

3) I've "never" had a coach ask to check if there wasn't some movement of the bat. If coaches are being a PITA about asking, then deal with that.

4) The time spent denying the request and then explaining it is longer thatn the time to check.

5) By tradition, if you don't check, you get the chit. If you ask, BU gets the chit (no matter the call).

Your partner should say to OHC "not needed coach, I have this call and I have it correct". No need for you to be involved in the discussion.

If you are 100% sure you are correct you should be 100% sure that BU will echo. So what's to lose, 5 seconds and the coach sits down. If I am BU I give you my honest opinion and if my honest opinion is "I don't know" (ie 50/50) I am going to echo your call.

Thanks Bob and DG - I see the light now better than before.

I'm sure by the end of the weekend this will sink in and I'll look back on my posts saying "what was I thinking!?"

So thanks for being patient and guiding me through the maze I had created in my own mind :D

I had this situation take place...

3-2 count on the batter, pitch misses low, batter brings his wrists down towards the plate but his bat was at about a 45 degree angle to the batter and not close to crossing the plate, so I balled the pitch. Catcher asks for an appeal so I yell "did he go?" to my partner who has his mind on where he is supposed to go (we were using 3 man system), and doesn't notice me appealing. I yell "(partner's name) did he go"? This time he hears me and calls it a swing.

I know an umpire who will never ask for help on a pulled foot. He believes the base umpire should be able to make that call. My question is how is an umpire going to be able to see a pulled foot from inside the infield? He could take a couple steps to get a better angle, but by the time he does this it is too late.

So the partner was moving to his new position because of ball four, but he saw that it was a swing, even though he wasn't paying attention? Then, he doesn't anticipate that the defense would appeal, even though he thought the batter swung? Sounds kind of fishy to me.

If there is even the most remote chance that the batter may have offered, a good base umpire will begin to head to his position so as not to draw attention to an appeal, but he should be ready to quickly make his judgment immediately if asked for his opinion. The fact that you had to get his attention tells me he really didn't know either way, and shouldn't have rung the batter up if he didn't see it.

Before anyone else rips into you for this one, I get my turn first.:)

I know an umpire who worked well over 3,000 games in his 21 years as an umpire, who asked for help on a pulled foot exactly twice.

That umpire is me.

The umpire that you know is correct. The base umpire absolutely should get his own calls, even when he is in the infield. If you can't see the pulled foot from the working area, then you are out of position. You need to be on an angle a bit closer to home plate from B so you don't get straight-lined. With the proper angle, which you should set up well in advance of the play at first, you can see everything, and should not need to ask for help.

For instance, when the ball is hit to F4, and you are in B with R1, you don't run toward 2nd base to call the first part of the DP. Your first move should be to step forward, turn with the ball as it passes you, and see the force at 2nd from there, not up close where you have no angle for the relay to 1st. You should see the play at 2nd while set, then move at an angle toward the 45 ft. line to get a few steps toward the angle you need to see F3's foot, which is what you focus on while listening for the ball. You can see all the pulled feet in the world from there. Same thing starting in C. Don't get too close to a force at 2nd, keeping a good sight angle for the nut-cutter you are more likely to have at 1st base.

Oh, the same goes for swipe tags at 1st. The BU should be able to get those himself too. It just looks a lot better.

It's got nothing to do with having the "stones to make the call". It has everything to do with getting him back in the dugout so we can play on and yes perhaps keeping him in the game.

Did I check with my partner? No it's my call. Does he think I checked yes. I did what he wanted. At this point after I say "hey my partner saw what I saw" 99.9% of the time he heads back to the dugout. Do I do this everytime he asks me to get help? Absolutely not. Most of the time the answer is "it's my call." The only time I do this is when I'm the base umpire and it involves a pulled foot or swipe tag. Rarely if ever will (can't remember the last time I did this) I look to my partner for assistance. In the event of a contorversial play who gets to clean up the mess? My partner because I was a lazy a** on the play and didn't get into position.

I once had a college coach tell me I couldn't make a check swing call from the middle. My response (when he walked past me later and wanted to start needling me about the call) was, "I have to make that call. You only hire two umpires."

I ask every time. It's amazing how a few times a year I'm tracking a pitch and I'm CERTAIN the batter didn't offer, only to have my BU overturn my call of "Ball. No, he didn't go." Doesn't bother me a bit. "Then it's a strike. One ball, two strikes." Inside I'm giddy that I'm one strike closer to an out. Doesn't wound my pride or anything like that.

When I started working high school games in 1987, my plate umpire and his pillow told me that if he came to me with the palm up, I should just agree with his call of ball. First time he did that, the batter almost screwed himself into the ground and I called a strike. Teams were not surprised and partner asked about it afterwards - I told him what had happened and he told me that he was glad then that I did that so he wouldn't look bad.

Things have changed, though. I've called check swing strikes from A, B, C, and D the past few years and nobody gets worked up over where you are anymore, except for the occasional 40-year coach who should've retired 15 years ago and the occasional Old Smitty.

If I'm unsure whether the batter's offered, I'll go even without being asked. Why guess? The worst crap I see on a field is the plate umpire calling a swinging strike when the batter obviously didn't offer. The teams will wonder why you decided to take that yourself when you have a partner out there that can help on the call. Some of the less enlightened will not understand that you can only appeal a PU's call of ball and wonder why you didn't get help, of course, and there's not much you can do about that.

Regarding seeing things from B or C...

2 weekends ago, top of the 1st in a AAU DH. Lefty pitcher starts towards home then comes to first. I get the balk. Coach yells something from dugout, I ignore.

Then coach comes out to about 5-10 feet away from me... and says "How can you see that from there?"

I said back "Somebody has to!"

Coach retreated back in pretty quickly.

I did not say anything about having stones to make a call, have the stones to stand up to the coach. You are basically lying by "checking" with your partner, and the coach probably knows it. What are you going to do on the next close call and the other coach wants you to "get help?" If you stand up to the first call, the next time you won't have to huddle either. If you want to huddle every time a coach asks, just to appease him, go right ahead, but you better have a lot of ice in the cooler, because your beer will be warm by the time your marathon is over.

Oh stop yourself. The freakin point passed right over your head.

Have a good rest of the weekend.

There's a much simpler solution if you want the coach back in the dugout. Just tell him to get back to his dugout! If he doesn't turn to go back, run his butt. The coach knows how to stay in the game, it's not up to us to help him do it.


Tim.

Maybe you should try to make the point again. It seemed pretty clear in your post.

guys, Guys, GUYS!!! It's all good.

And with this stunning revelation, I do believe we can safely close this thread!

A great post by a veteran umpire who understands the game.

Don't guess, don't play games, just make the calls.

Thanks
David