Batter throwing bat
 

How do you guys deal with a batter who tosses his bat after making contact with the ball? Do you eject the unsafe player immediately, or give him a warning? My procedure has been to wait till the inning is over, then write the offending player's number on my lineup card, and tell the coach "player number xx is getting his warning for throwing the bat". If he does it again, player is ejected.

I had a coach challenge my way of handling this situation, who stated that there was no rule about not throwing the bat. I feel rule 9.01a is sufficient to cover the handling of an unsafe player- part of the umpire's job is to maintain order and discipline on the field.

I take it that you are talking about a "carelessly" thrown bat. Tossing the bat after hitting the ball is never against the rules in OBR, which is the rule set under which you work, I believe. (unless you have a local or league rule prohibiting a "carelessly" thrown bat). Only under FED rules is there a proscribed penalty for a bat throwing infraction.

Since OBR makes no provision for throwing a bat, carelessly or otherwise, my question to you is why you are trying to enforce a non-existent rule? The coach who challenged you was correct to do so. If he said that there is no rule against tossing the bat away after hitting the ball, then he is right.

By the way, citing any 9.01 rule as justification of an on-field ruling is extremely weak, and shows a lack of understanding of the playing rules.

The only time this is an issue is when I'm working kids under age 10 or so. A lot of them either a) don't realize they're throwing the bat or b) are so excited that they just chuck the thing. If I notice it's a problem, I'll just ask the coach to remind his guys not to throw the bat, because I have been hit many times and I've seen catchers get nailed in the legs and arms. Unless it's a safety issue I don't make a big deal out of it, which is why I've never said it to anyone older than maybe 14. Coaches understand the safety issue, so I've never had to talk to a coach more than once in a game.

In his defense, Steve, OBR is written for professional leagues where this almost never happens. In youth leagues that use modified OBR that don't address a carelessly discarded bat, in my opinion, it should be addressed by us. If I or the catcher gets hit by a thrown bat the offender receives a warning, and only one warning. Next time I see it, he's gone.


Tim.

I was under the possibly incorrect idea that he was working big boy ball, and not kiddie ball. I usually just tell the kid and the coach to stop throwing the bat. It sometimes takes more than one warning to get the kid to break the habit of slinging the bat backwards. I really hate ejecting little kids for this.

An option I used to use in LL small diamond games it to give the manager the option of sitting the player himself as opposed to me issuing an ejection where the player has to sit a one game suspension.


Tim.

You would be amazed how old kids can be when they're still throwing the bat. I have had kids as old as 14 not knowing how to simply drop it. I don't want anybody getting hurt, myself included. A player who cannot play safely should not be in the game IMO. I haven't had to eject for it yet, but if I did it would be a "okay coach, your player can stay on the bench for the rest of the game but he cannot play".

Is there a rule prohibiting this in the code under which you're working, or are you making one up?

I guess I'm making one up. I can live with it...................


There's no specific rule in OBR that prohibits a player from hurling his helmet into the dugout or slamming it on the plate after a call they don't like. But, they're going to get dumped in a game I'm working, made up rule or no.


Tim.

First, I did not quote you and was not posting to you, but if you work like Canadaump6 let me ask this: Do you see no difference between a player throwing a helmet purposefully and an incidentally thrown bat?

But Tim, the problem I had was with the heavy-handed way Canadaump was warning people, in true Gestapo fashion. It seemed quite OOO to me. He never said that it was a "carelessly" thrown bat, just a "thrown bat." It seemed like he was saying that the batter must lay his bat gently on the ground, or else face the wrath of CU6.

If he had made clear what kind of thrown bat he was talking about, and what age group he was talking about, then I may have understood a bit more. But what he said was, "How do you guys deal with a batter who tosses his bat after making contact with the ball?" The correct answer to this question (remember, he wants to err on the side of picky) is "nothing, it's not illegal to toss a bat."

Yes. As Mr. Umpire says, there is a big difference from angrily throwing equipment, for which if it is outside the dugout, I will eject immediately. If inside the dugout, I tell the coach to handle it. But someone accidently throws the bat without malice, I'm not going to run the kid. He will eventually learn not to throw the bat, but there is no rule that says he can't, and I don't go around making up rules.

Sure I see the difference. The difference to me is that with the equipment thrown in disgust I'm going to immediately run the player whereas with the thrown bat I'll give him a warning first. Maybe I need to make clear that I'm not talking about a bat that's been tossed a decent distance away from the plate area. I'm talking about a bat that's wantonly discarded that hits myself or the catcher in close proximity to the plate. It happens very rarely on the big diamond, but it does happen, and if it happens twice in a game the player is done for the day.



Steve,


Are you really going to allow a player to hit you, even accidentally, twice in one game with a thrown bat and not run him?



Tim.

If it ever happens and I'm working big boy ball under OBR, yep. I don't use small boy rules in big boy games.

I guess that with the exception of HS and 16-18 year old games I don't work enough "big boy" ball. Of course FED does cover it, but for the life of me I can't figure out why they'd want to input "small boy" rules into their "big boy" games. Unless like LL does for all levels, including 16-18, they felt that it was necessary to address for the safety of the games participants. But what do I know.........

Tim.

Here's what I know: If the rules cover the action, I enforce it. If the rules do not, I don't.

I follow the rules under which the game is played and I don't invent rules and I don't transfer rules from one code to another.

To my knowledge the original post was in reference to a game played under OBR, not FED. I asked if there was a league rule covering the action and did not get a reply. Thus, my posts have addressed OBR, under which there is no penalty for the action you described.

I don't know. It never happened to me. I guess I didn't work enough small ball to find out.

Not trying to be smart about it, but aside from my first year umpiring and my very last 3/4 season with a band of Smitties, I never worked lower than Pony level in the 19 years in between, except for a few championships mixed in once every few years. (Not counting the Pinto games worked from behind the mound on those big Saturday/Sunday paydays:) )

Carelessly throw the bat away from the catcher and myself, I don't care.

Throw it in our vicinity with force, and I care.

What I will do is leave the bat where it is (particurally if it is at the backstop), call time when the play is completely over, then walk over to the manager and tell him to take a look at where that bat ended up. Gets the message across firmly, but courteously.

Next time Johnny comes up, everybody will remind him "When you hit the ball, drop the bat". Including myself...

Like I said, if he is flipping it off to the sides I don't care one bit.

If the coach is right and there is no rule, then you have to let it go, imo.

If there is a rule, then enforce it -- and the enforcement will vary by the specific organization, whether "national" or local.

Since it's alocal issue, you mght get better feedback by asking others in those leagues.

If a warning is required by rule, I would give it immediately (at the end of the play during which it happens) rather than at the end of the (half-) inning.

While OBR (the ruleset I use) doesn't specifically cover throwing the bat, I feel responsible for keeping players safe and that includes dealing with players who cannot play the game safely. Does nobody believe that enforcement of safety comes into play under rule 9.01a?

I have had so many games over the past couple years where a player will throw the bat, I tell the player and/or coach that he cannot throw it, and next at bat the player throws it again. It is very frustrating and really makes me wonder whether I am an umpire or a babysitter. It's one of the reasons I don't do much kiddieball anymore. Maybe I am just too picky.

Do you not see a difference between the two? One is unsportsmanlike, while the other is just plain dangerous.

The game itself is dangerous. The specific issue (accidental bat throwing) is a league issue. If they don't think it warrants a league rule, then you shouldn't try to invent one during the game.

If you feel strongly about it, then propose a rules change to them.

Quite so. That failing, limit your officiating

Still the youth leagues I do work off of USSSA, I usually ask the coach to speak to the player about how he needs to hold onto the bat a bit longer, after the first time it hits me or the catcher. Nothing too OOO, just a quick word as the next batter is coming up.

The second time the batter does it; I call time, pick up the bat myself, call the coach out and suggest that he might want to have the batter hold on to the bat clear until the next time he comes up so maybe he will get used to just letting it drop after his next at bat. Still not using a sarcastic tone or being mean, but getting the point across. A lot of coaches seem to think there actually is a rule that allows me to toss the kid.

Often get an apology the next time the batter comes up, and have actually seen coaches follow my advice (it is what I used to make my boys' teams do back when I was on the dark side).

If there is nothing in the OBR about a player throwing the bat and 9.01a does not cover it, then how about 9.01c.

(c) Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules.

If it comes down to saftey and there is nothing specifically about it, then this should cover it.

I get really nervous when it is recommended to use 9.01c. It is a very slippery slope you tread on when you trot that one out, IMHO.

As far as Canada's philosophy of "I feel responsible for keeping players safe", how many HBP's do you allow before you eject a pitcher?

In most adult leagues I've worked, 3 in a game or 2 in the same inning gets the pitcher an early hook.

No, no, a thousand times no. 9.01c is not a license for you to make up rules.

The purpose of 9.01c is to allow the umpire to make a ruling in order to permit the game to move along when it gets stuck. Pitch in flight hits a bird. What's your call? Ball? Strike? No pitch? Do runners get to advance? That's the spot for 9.01c.

Just because the rules are silent on a matter does not mean that there's an omission calling for you to apply 9.01c.

There's a line somewhere, it's just a matter of where you draw it.
#22 swings hard, makes contact releases bat late, bat hits F2 in elbow. F2 has to leave game with possible broken bone.
Next time 22 is up similar scenario but this time bat hits you in the neck.
Defensive coach tells you he does not have a third catcher.
Your neck is already hurting and now you're risking being behind a novice catcher the rest of the day:D
Are you giving 22 a third at bat

Or better yet, 22 throws the bat and cripples the catcher at his first at bat, and at his second at bat, throws his bat which bounces off the back-up catcher, killing him instantly, and hits the pitcher causing a compound fracture of his left elbow, splintering and putting out his right eye.

That ought to get you a couple of "votes."

I hate to throw myself in the fire but I view a batter that consistently throws his bat as an unsportsmanlike act if the bat ends up near a defender (or myself). Just my two cents. I have not had a problem with it recently as I nip it immediately with a conference with the coach. "Coach, your last batter threw his bat backwards in the vicinity of the plate. It could have easily injured the catcher or myself. We need to get that taken care of immediately. Thank you for talking with him about it."

-Josh

Only rules sets I have ever seen dealing with bat throwing are in Dixie at the T-Ball and machine pitch levels. The batter is warned the first time, is an out every time after that for bat slinging, but is based on the umpires judgement and applies ONLY to those two levels of play.

Now at levels above that, if the batter releases it backwards somehow and it hits me or F2, I'm going to have to determine was it an accident or was it malicious. Either way he's being warned to control his bat and may be tossed if he does it again. Why would I toss? It's a safety issue and if warned and he does it again, he should go.

I say all this theoretically though because in 6 years of calling I've never had a batter release it or swing back and hit me or the catcher. Just lucky I guess.

Three time this sumer I have been hit by bats because the batter did not control it. I wear a HSM and one time the bat hit me at the extended throat junction.

I give a warning every time and have not had to toss anyone for this in years.:)

It's apparent that you again have misunderstood my point and I apologize for not communicating very well.
I'll rephrase it so that you may better understand the point, apparently unsuccessfully, I was trying to make.

1. I wasn't looking for votes.

Mbyron(whom I quoted on the post you are referring) was emphatic about NOT using 9.01c in a bat throwing sitch during an OBR game.

I don't necessarily agree that it is so black and white and feel that most umps will at some point draw a line on this issue.
(Draw a line means that at some point we will all put a stop to the bat throwing, however some will tolerate more than others. Where you draw the line is up to you)
Perhaps it would have to be as drastic as your above sitch for you to draw the line I don't know.
So yes, my sitch was third world but would probably not be tolerated by many umps, which helps make my point.

The intent of using this form of argument is to switch the debate from 'Do you stop this type of behavior' to 'When do you stop this type of behavior'?
I'm hoping that is not to subtle for you.
And if the question is When do you stop it, the next question has to be How do you stop it? Using 9.01c is obviously one way.

PS
Are you by chance from Rio Linda?

they say not to look over the top of the foxhole....
 

Well, I'll go ahead and draw sniper fire....

Last year, working the Pony age group of PONY, Inc. (13-14?), I dumped a kid for that. I actually "restricted him to the bench," so I actually used a rule from another code, but he was as good as out of the game.

First at bat, the bat clanged off the catcher AND me - thankfully, mostly shin guards. Spoke to 3B coach "hey coach, he needs to control that bat, please talk to him." Second at bat, the bat hit the backstop with a short hop. Now, the fences at this place are reeeeeall close, but then, so are the openings where players come from the dugout, and that's where that bat was heading (his own bench, even). Again, spoke to the coach "Can't keep doing that, or I'm going to sit him." And I made sure the player knew he had to control the bat. So he and the coach have had two warnings.

Third time up - swings for a base hit. "Clang" does the bat off the backstop. I don't know if the bat hit the ground first, and I didn't care. I waited for the play to end - he was safe at 1B - then I called time, and said to the coach "you need a runner at first. he's restricted to the bench." (Of course, the other coaches wanted an out. Nice try, fellas.)

Is that in the rules? No, it isn't. Is that really a 9.01(c)? No, although I may have referenced it when I wrote it up. I used more the logic that it's a safety issue - a big deal in youth ball - and more importantly, it's a failure to comply with an umpire's directive. So out he went.

Is that a 'righteous' EJ, or correct action? Some here would say no. I was okay with it. The coach didn't have a problem with it, since a) he knew I'd said something twice already, b) he's coached the kid all year, and c) we were near the time limit, so it didn't cost him much.

I told that mostly because you'd mentioned never getting hit, but also to see what the group would say. Fire away, then.....

These situations are proof of why I think an umpire should deal with the problem and eliminate any gray areas.

Uh-oh, somebody's been listening to too much Rush!:cool: