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how would you fix this?
Sitch
I will try to properly paint this picture 0 outs bases empty...2 man mechanics...obr F3 is playing about 25 feet behind the bag and BU is slightly further back in A Lefthanded batter hits a hot grounder down the line, over the base where F3 makes a great diving stop. BU sees its fair, makes proper voice mechanic (meaning none), and just points with his left arm FOUL....uuuuggghhh.... F3, who has heard nothing, knows its a fair ball and it might be a close play (pitcher didn't cover) and runs to first only to see that the B/R has stopped running. F3 steps on the bag and the BU takes a couple steps toward the base and gives an out mechanic.... COMMENCE CRAPHOUSE I am UIC and ,without being asked, walk up the 1B line to talk to BU who has just said, "What the hell did I just do?" loud enough for the offensive dugout to hear...needless to say he was embarrassed.... If anyone cares I will tell you how we fixed it later but I am interested in how you guys would have fixed it. Stay with out or call it a foul ball? |
Under FED, of course, once BU signals foul the ball is dead by rule. The defense cannot record an out.
OBR is less clear about this kind of umpire error. The BRD has an OBR ruling that says "the umpire may reverse his call if everyone concerned ignored his initial signal." The umpire's error likely caused BR to stop running. To stick with the erroneous call would give the defense an advantage not intended by the rules. I would stick with the foul call, apologize to the defense for the blown call, and explain that if it had been a double down the line and I signaled foul, we'd probably still stick with the call. BU needs to do all the talking during the explanations. |
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WHAT? It was called foul. The runner stopped. The craphouse happened because they saw the foul call. |
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Under FED, you stick with the foul ball call.
I did almost the same exact thing this year.:o In a playoff game last night, we had a situation where a batter hit the ball off the end of the bat. The ball bounced out into the field funny. The ball was fielded and the batter/runner thrown out at first. As we follow our eyes to U1, he has his arms up for foul ball!!! :( Then he slaps his foot. Upon the meeting of the minds, the plate guy and me (U3) KNOW that it didn't hit the batters foot. From my angle, which was 90 degrees from his foot and ball, and seen at least 2 feet of daylight between ball and foot. I know for certain it never hit his foot. Oh well. The only "right" call was to let the "foul ball" stand. The UIC took charge and told the defensive team head coach that no matter whether there was a judgment mistake or not, by rule, once it is called foul, it is foul. No argument. The batter hit a double after that taking that 0-1 count to full count! :( |
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Gordon...
If someone stops "playing" in this case, because of an umpires signal of foul, then its a foul ball. The Umpire who made the erroneus call has to eat it, and take the crap. This wasnt a ball hit in the gap, where no one is going to make a "foul" call. This was a ball up the line, maybe BR had his head down, whatever, its foul. And your going to let the play stand? Your going to most likely have a bigger sh*thouse. |
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This isn't court, Gordon (I know, I'm an attorney and if this was court I'd be billing $350 an hour to talk to you).
F3 didn't stop playing because he saw the ball was fair - AND DIDN'T HAVE ANY CONTRARY INFORMATION FROM THE BU TO TELL HIM OTHERWISE. However, B/R DID have information from BU that it was foul and that caused him to stop running. You can "rest your case" but the judgment is going against you. We're not penalizing the offense because BU flubbed - and there's nothing for UIC to do so we're not going there. |
Calling the batter out would be FAR worse than the original foul call. Keep it to one blown call. The ball is foul.
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The batter-runner stopped because he saw the foul call and reacted. The S*&%house happened because the offense SAW the foul call. It's foul - deal with it. |
I agree that the ball is foul.
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gordon, soon a jury of 12 posters total will rule against you!
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Whether you call FOUL or SIGNAL FOUL = FOUL Example: PU puts the "stop sign up" towards F1. That means we have TIME and DO NOT PITCH. The PU does need to say anything. Bottom Line: Rightly or wrongly when the players hear or see an umpire signal FOUL they STOP. There are those rare instances (in both the LLWS and a ML baseball game) where a FOUL call was changed to fair. The ball in this play is FOUL. BU admitted mistake (hey it happens) now time to move on. Pete Booth |
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Lie isn't fair. The BU f'ed up. Sometimes you get the short end of the stick. Next. |
FED Case Play -
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Altho the OP states OBR, I'm posting the FED case play here to give some guidance on what they want us to do in essentially the same situation. I think the Major League Umpire Manual has something silimar in it, but I don't have a copy - prehaps someone else can post that so you can see what OBR has to say... 2.16.1 SITUATION B: On a count of 1-ball, 2-strikes, B1 hits a ground ball down the third-base line and the umpire inadvertently declares “foul ball.” F6 fields the ball in fair territory and throws to F3. RULING: The ball is dead immediately once it hits the ground; B1 returns to bat with a count of 1-2. |
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FOUL
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End Result
Since I Am The Original Poster I Get The Last Word On This And Before I Tell You How We Ruled I Must Commend Gordon For Sticking To His Guns Even Though I Disagree....We Ruled It Foul, Saying That, Although The Mechanic Was Poor, The Foul Signal Has Pretty Much Killed The Action And Nothing Further Can Happen After That, Because We Killed The Ball, No Matter How Wrong It Was.
---gordon...as The Pu I Know For A Fact The Batter Stopped Because Of The Signal Because As Soon As My Bu Made The Out Mechanic He Turned To Me And Said ,"what The F--k, He Pointed Foul"...i Said," Give Me A Second While My Partner And I Figure It Out"..... End Result Is We Had No Ejections Because We Had A Good Rapport With The Defensive Coach And He Had Seen What Transpired...instead He Jokingly Ribbed My Partner For The Rest Of The Season...he Also Gave A Dvd Of The Sitch With My Partner Obvious Mouthing,"what The Blank Did I Just Do?" Clearly Visible To Him When He Saw Him Later In The Season As Another Joke.... Thanks For Everyone's Input |
Devil's Advocating
The proper foul mechanic is raising both arms in the air and verbalizing "foul". Right? BU did not use either mechanic, just pointed with his left arm, presumedly toward foul territory. If memory serves, the foul mechanic was changed many years ago precisely to avoid accidental foul calls.
The proper fair mechanic is pointing towards fair territory and verbalizing nothing. This is what BU did, except for the accidental point in the wrong direction. So why is BR entitled to think foul was called? Well, I guess I know the answer to that question. If the commonly understood foul signal caused BR to stop running, then BU has to eat the foul call. But I was surprised no one mentioned the wrong foul signal. Is pointing foul, rather than raising both arms, the proper signal anywhere? |
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Both hands in the air is "time". Pointing is the indicator. |
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'It aint fair!' is a whiny coach's crutch. Don't use it. |
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BU signaled "foul," so BR stopped running. It's unfair to the offense to change the call at this point. Gordon is concerned about fairness to the defense: how can you take away an out? You take it away because it was obtained unfairly due to an umpire's mistake. Fairness--providing no advantage not intended by the rules--is the justification for the OBR ruling I posted in post #2 above. |
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Why was there a meeting of the minds? U1 sees the ball hit the foot, properly signals foul. It's foul. Get the batter back in the box and lets play. If DHC or OHC has a problem he deals with U1 not the whole crew. IMO, UIC had no business being involved at all, except to get the batter back in the box. Being this was a playoff game I'm assuming U1 can take care of himself. Secondly, it appears as if UIC threw U1 under the bus with his comment about mistake in judgement. |
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Fairness has nothing to do with it. The rules aren't fair in numerous places. Our job is to see that neither team gets an advantage not intended by the rules, not to decide what is fair and what isn't. |
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The rules do not define "fair". They define accepted and required practices and observances of a game, some of which are not "fair." The role of the umpire is not to decide what is fair, but to enforce the rules, whether they appear fair or not. |
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The rules define what is fair for games. |
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