Crafty cheating coach
 

I pulled this from "hit2win.com"

The situation is that the offensive team has two or three runners on the bases. Like in most cases the three runners have varying running speeds. The defensive team has called a time out so that the coach can go out to talk to his pitcher. The 3rd base coach calls his runners over for a conference. The coach that will cheat will decide where he needs the speed the most and will move fast runners in front of slow runners to give his team an advantage. To prevent this from happening to you make sure to have your score bookkeeper check the locations of all runners after runners have had conferences with their base coach.

If discovered:

• Is this an appeal play only?
• What is the call?

Side note/question. (not a question on the rule but about how to deal with the coach that tries it) I run a medium size youth league. (about 1400 players, ages 6 through 18, baseball and softball.) If I caught a coach pulling this little trick I think I would kick him/her out of the league:(

I don't post much on this forum (because I'm new and learn more just by reading) but, I am just as interested in your opinions on how to deal with a coach like this as I am in the rule on making the call.

Thanks

If I see it happen I'm going to be calling one or more runners out for passing a proceeding runner once the ball is put back into play.........


Tim.

Depends
 

Has the coach been a pain in the arse? If so maybe Tim's solution is best. Otherwise, hold up play and return the runners to their proper positions. Interject sarcasm as you see fit. I'd also let the coach know that I didn't subscribe to his views on sportsmanship.

Specific FED case / interp on this: Call one runner out for passing the other. Call another runner out fro running the bases in reverse. Eject the coach for unsporting behavior.

Crafty? I consider legally using the rules for your advantage as crafty (IE a coach knowingly letting an improper batter to reach base instead of while he is still at bat). Plain old cheating is ridiculous, teaches bad things to the players and promotes horrible sportsmanship.

Can't argue with the official interpretation :cool:

-Josh

Bob J nailed it...at least 2 outs, and the coach is gone.....

Good explination but you left out a small detail, Tim. We are going to dump the coach on general principle, also! :D

out, out, dump coach, be ready for a sh!thouse.

Hopefully you catch that the coach wants to do this before he actually does it so you can prevent this all, but unless you have a U3, it seems unlikely. Far different then a previous thread that had a coach leaving a runner on 3rd who didn't belong. No way we are going to immediately be able to tell who should be where.

Hopefully, we see it before its too late. Most good umpires would...

Out, out, brief candle... :cool:

I think my favorite part would be putting the ball in play, THEN calling TIME! right away. Then you get to pull out the revolver, get three, blow the smoke off the barrel, and reholster it, ala Mr. Luciano. Pow! Pow! Thumb.

Not to mention likely aftermath ejections. It could end up looking like the St. Valentine's Day Massacre.

Thanks all. Good advice.

I would say a craftier move would be with R2 and R3 and an intentional walk situation, manager brings up his top slugger to take 3 balls towards an intentional walk, then bring up the proper batter to assume a 3-0 count.

Not that crafty. The opposing coaching staff would need to be asleep to miss it. And if they're not asleep, then simply pitch it down the pipe. Appeal the BOO if the batter bites, and if he doesn't, you get a strike or two before they put the proper batter in.

I like that. Throw it in underhand.

In ASA softball, each runner who occupies a base other than their original base after the TO shall be declared out and the coach/manager ejected.

If there were 3 runners on the basepaths and all 3 of them switched bases....
you'd have 3 outs!

Relevance?

None, really.

Just pointing out the rules difference.

Bob would only be right if the league was using Fed rules. You can't cite that book in other leagues without getting laughed at.

Once the ball is in play, you need an appeal to apply anything. I once saw a coach switch batters while the defensive team was busy taking care of kids who was injured while chasing a fall fly ball. I was at 3 away from the injury and saw the HC call the batter over and sub another while the new pitcher warmed up and the injured kids were tended to. My partners didn't even catch it until the half inning was up.

If you're looking for an OBR citation that says a runner passing a proceeding runner has to be appealed for an out to be called I suggest not spending too much time looking because it's not there..........


Tim.

Okay, let's back up a bit Tim. Time has been called. During that conference, you see that the runners have been switched and you are going to make them change before the ball is put in play? No??? Are you going to wait until the ball is back in play and then kill it and try to enforce a penalty? The other team didn't notice the switch but you are going to now involve yourself in the game. That's not your job, Tim. You may as well turn in your mask and chest protector if you believe it is. It is nothing until you are asked.

Pete,

You are wrong on every count. A significant percentage of the current rules were written in response to cheating or taking advantage of holes in existing codes.

Nothing here is an appeal play - if the umpires see the cheating prior to making the ball live, fix it & eject 3B coach. If for some reason it's missed before the ball is made live, get the outs and eject 3B coach and runners.

Exactly. This is not BOOT or a missed base or a leaving early violation where the defense is required, by rule, to be vigilant. And there is no chance this is an innocent mistake, either. The defense should be able to be confident that runners will not switch positions on the bases.

On the contrary. This is the fundametnal role of the umpire....to see that neither side receives an advantgage not intended by rule.

Toss the no good cheat of a coach (an oxymoron?) and if discovered while the ball is still dead, fix it. If the ball was made live, ring up the runners.

If, during an offensive conference, the coach switched R2 with a removed substitute, would you also require the defense to "appeal" that move ? Or would you handle it if you noticed it ?

Depends on the rule set. May be a legal sub not announced or may be an illegal sub. In most cases I would call the sub to the attention of the PU (Or if PU call over the offensive HC) to see what's up.

If this was an illegal sub take the appropriate action based on rule set. An ejection is not out of the question is head rat gives any BS.