Are parent's living too vicariously through their kids??

[spots101]

For the past 3 years I have been scheduling games for a local Pony League in my area (just on my own, no association). Two years ago it became apparent that we needed to go with all "patched" or experienced umpires. Prior to that I had, on occasion, used high school kids and older so that they could get some experience. Unfortunately however, it appeared that the parents wanted a perfect game called every time by the umps so that was the reason for the change.
Yesterday I just received a call from the organizer of the Bronco League (the one right below Pony). He is tired of hearing (and seeing) the parents complain and that league wants to use patched umpires as well.
The reason why I am posting this is to see what other situations umpires have experienced with parents and have you seen the same change (experienced umps doing lower level games) in your community as well.
If we want to see more umps come up through the ranks they need to start somewhere. But the overzealous parents seem to be keeping that from happening because they want to live out their baseball fantasies through their kids.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by spots101
For the past 3 years I have been scheduling games for a local Pony League in my area (just on my own, no association). Two years ago it became apparent that we needed to go with all "patched" or experienced umpires. Prior to that I had, on occasion, used high school kids and older so that they could get some experience. Unfortunately however, it appeared that the parents wanted a perfect game called every time by the umps so that was the reason for the change.
Yesterday I just received a call from the organizer of the Bronco League (the one right below Pony). He is tired of hearing (and seeing) the parents complain and that league wants to use patched umpires as well.
The reason why I am posting this is to see what other situations umpires have experienced with parents and have you seen the same change (experienced umps doing lower level games) in your community as well.
If we want to see more umps come up through the ranks they need to start somewhere. But the overzealous parents seem to be keeping that from happening because they want to live out their baseball fantasies through their kids.

Have the BOD crack down on the over zealous parents. The kids will then want to umpire.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Yes, parents are probably the biggest problem in youth sports and students not performing well in school (but the school issue is a thread all itself).

I played high school basketball and golf. My sister played golf in high school and college. She and I are both accomplished golfers and the high school for which I played basktball was a perrineial (I am good at math but lousy at spelling) league champion. My first love is basketball closely followed by golf.

My wife and I are the parents of two wonderful boys (ages 9 and 12; they are honor students in school), and they both love basketball and are good at it. They both play baseball (not bad players for their ages) and swim on the YMCA swim team. The 9 yr old is developing into a pretty good gymnist. But from the very beginning the two of them have been taught that sports officials do not win or lose games; players win or lose games. Furthermore, the goals of sports are in the following order:

1) have fun

2) be a good sport

3) have fun

4) try has hard as you can in the game

5) be a good sport

6) have fun

7) practice hard

8) be a good sport

9) have fun

10) and if you happen to lose the game: 1) be a good sport and 2) have fun

11) and if you happen to win the game: 1) be a good sport and 2) have fun


Since 1993 I have officiated, on average, four AAU, YBOA, and/or AYBTour national basketball tournaments (both boys and girls), and I can tell you that there are enough coaches and parents to ruin the games for everybody. And I think that the 13U and under age group and below are the worst. Some of these parents have absolutely no concept of what sports is about and what good sportmanship is. I officiate baseball, softball, and soccer, and the parents of the players in the sports other than soccer are just as bad as the soccer parents.

Sometimes, I think that the kids would have more fun if we just gave them bat, ball, and gloves and let them go play sandlot baseball or a basketball and give them the key to the gym in the summer and let them call their own games. And most important, do not watch them play, just drop them off and pick them up: no coaches, parents, or officials.

Well I am done with my ranting and my apologies to Dennis Miller.

[bluezebra]

"Sometimes, I think that the kids would have more fun if we just gave them bat, ball, and gloves and let them go play sandlot baseball or a basketball and give them the key to the gym in the summer and let them call their own games. And most important, do not watch them play, just drop them off and pick them up: no coaches, parents, or officials"

Mark, You just replayed my early days growing up in Chicago.

Bob

[Chris Winn]

I call it "Mickey Mantle Syndrome". A lot parents truly believe that THEIR kid is the next Mantle, Koufax, A-Rod,(insert any other name here). And parents of 12u kids are the worst. I don't think parents actually learn much as the years go by, it's just that they get older and tired, so they don't get as riled up at the games. Then, when the kids are old enough to drive themselves to the ball park, the parents rarely show up at all. Usually, by that time, the parents have realized that their kid is indeed NOT the next great superstar, so they participate less and less.

[Mike M]

I know this is heresy but I believe that soccer has a better model for youth sports. The separate categories of teams - house teams (and more three levels for leagues) , traveling teams and Olympic development teams within age groups creates different expectations from the parents. As a result, for those parents who child has developed talent at a young age, they can have them perform with other children of similar talent.

For major sports like baseball, football and basketball, American youth organizations do not create enough of a distinction between participatory leagues and competitive leagues.

[bluezebra]

I worked at a park in Chicago while in college. The Park Director had a sign above his desk: "Every father wants his son to be the athlete he was, or wasn't." Now, with the advent of girls' sports (softball especially), we can add "mothers" and "daughters" to that sign.

Bob

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Mike M
I know this is heresy but I believe that soccer has a better model for youth sports. The separate categories of teams - house teams (and more three levels for leagues) , traveling teams and Olympic development teams within age groups creates different expectations from the parents. As a result, for those parents who child has developed talent at a young age, they can have them perform with other children of similar talent.

For major sports like baseball, football and basketball, American youth organizations do not create enough of a distinction between participatory leagues and competitive leagues.

Are you kidding? Soccer players are the most obnoxius players (compared to the other three sports that I officiate) I know. But basketball coaches are the most obnoxius coaches in the world. Of all sports, basketball coaches are the most clueless when it comes to rules knowledge.

But agree on one thing. Sportsmanship at all levels and all involved has down to hell in a handbasket over the last 15 to 20 years. And I hate to say it, but television is one of the big reasons why.

[etbaseball]

Spots101 -

I don't believe that any parent will not, at one time or another, relive their own past experiences in the sporting environment through their childrens activities. It's human nature and I wouldn't mess with 'Mother Nature.' The real issue hear, I believe, is not so much the parents living vicariously through their childrens activity, but rather the protective instincts we parents all possess.

The question really is, "what causes parents to behave the way they do?" during these irrationale outbursts. It's the absence of FAIRNESS in the contest when unskilled / neophyte officials try to do the best than can and it's not good enough.

There has been much written in the last number of years regarding the violence in sports, particularly at the lower age levels; under 12 years generally speaking. Most of the articles speak to the legislation being enacted all over the country wherein various states are instituting laws which make it a felony to engage in physical contact with any sports official. While the penalties for engaging in such immature behavior are getting more serious than ever before, experts have also pointed the finger at officials who have little training if any at all. When an unskilled official is in charge you're inviting trouble.

Officiating is not an easy job, at any level. It is the responsibility of all people involved, within the many sports organizations that exist, to insure that 'properly qualified' officials are in charge of these various sporting contests. The simple answer is TRAINING, TRAINING AND MORE TRAINING.

I've discussed this issue with many of my colleagues who deal with league management and / or officials administration. I've spoken to directors of recreation for cities and towns regarding this issue of violence in youth sports. Fortunately there's a price tag attached to the resolution. Organizations must spend the money to send these skill-less officials to clinics for basic training. It's been proven as the best and most effective cure for the problem. Most clinics now are including program development for those who have never officiated a game and need basic skills. Without these skills they cannot survive.

This past February my organization conducted an officials clinic (baseball of course) for about 60 umpires. Only 4 were brand new to the gengre. We are now planning for our 2003 clinic and one of the major changes will be to aggressively sell this clinic to many of the surrounding leagues who, historically speaking, place the 'high schooler' on the field without anything but a hope and a prayer. We've received very positive feedback about reaching out to invite them to attend our clinic with a program specifically designed to provide 'basic skills' to those that need it the most.

I truly believe that TRAINING is the best available method to cure the problem of violence in sports, particularly as it relates to 'out of control' parents who think their children have been cheated/robbed of the fairness which is suppose to be present at every sporting contest.


When 'trained' officials are in charge of the contest, most of the outrageous behavior seems to dissappear. It makes sense to me.

[GeorgeC]

I am from the Temecula/Murrieta area of S.W. Riverside Cty (in So. Calif.) where we formed a Pony league in 1994 and where I have been a board member until last year. The league grew immediately to the point where it averages 65 to 70 teams per year (Spring Season) and about 60% of that for the Fall Season (they run two). I am also starting my 8th year umpiring (2nd in high school ball).

One of the biggest issues we initially had to deal with was how do we handle officiating. Since many of the original founders were coaches who had been around the game for quite sometime (including some of them ex-pro players) it was unaminous that we were to provide the best that we could afford. This is the 2nd biggest expense for the league and that can often unfortunately drive the decision process. What a league can afford is going to be of primary consideration.

Our league opted to hire from the local association, paid umpires for the Mustang and above divisions. Mustang Div. (9-10 yr olds for those who don't know Pony lingo) are single man mechanics all other divisions are two man and this league goes all the way through Colt (15-16 yr olds).

The unique division is that of the Pinto Div. (7-8 yr olds) Here is where we have chosen to hire kids (players) from the Pony Div. (13-14 yr olds) and begin to train them as league umpires. It has accomplished two points, provided an excellent training pool for new umpires and keeps our umpiring costs down for that division (they're paid about half as much and for most it's their first actual job). After two years most are usually good enough to be hired by the local association to start doing Mustang Div. assignments. If they haven't been scared off by then by coaches or parents they are usually pretty good umpires but the replacement process is constant.

To say we have problems from time to time with parents and coaches is an understatement. However, as an earlier message thread mentioned you only get out of it what you are willing to put into it. Those two ingredients are Training and Enforcement. You must Train, Train, Train, and Train. Not just the umpires but the coaches and the parents. We constantly lay down the law about not interfering, commenting, or in any way saying anything but positive comments to these young recruits (or the Board will take serious action hence the Enforcement). As these young recruits are started there is always someone initially watching (actually protecting) them from the board level. We don't just throw them to the wolves so to speak because if you weren't there visible to everyone, it would be like throwing them to the wolves. Most are initially so scared if you don't provide them the comfort that you are there to help, guide and protect they would all quit in the first two games.

It is also important to note what we did with our local association. I was fortunate a few years back to have become associated with a gentleman from Orange County, CA umpire association's training section (IBOA). They put on a two-day, 8 hour a day training camp and usually bring a dozen instructors with them. Our only cost is to feed them. For the professional training these gentlemen provide this is an incredible bargain. We began to train our local association umpires at our fields with this group and the improvements have been dramatic. When we tried to do the training ourselves the impact fell way too short of what everyone's expectations were. When you see guys who have been working for many, many years begin to change their mechanics you know it is having a positive effect.

Officiating complaints have subsided dramatically. Don't think however, that this is a quick fix. We and the owner's of the umpire association know that this will be an ongoing thing for many years that only over time will produce results. As to your other point about parents, I firmly believe that there is no other fix there than strict enforcement by the league for ANYONE breaking the rules that relate to unsportsmanlike conduct. I left after 7 years because I could no longer deal with the petty BS from parents that got quite strenuous last year and mostly at the 7-8 yr old level.

There is an excellent national organization called National Alliance for Youth Sports (NAYS) based out of Florida that I would strongly recommend to any league. Their focus is the training (there's that word again) of Parents, Coaches, and Players alike on the subject of sportsmanship. They have excellent training video's (one of which I showed in one of our umpire training classes that got considerable applause and comment) for all three segments (Coaches, Parents, Players, and Administrators [Board Members]) as well as a national registry program for coaches. You can find them at http://www.nays.org. It is a very professionally run organization and you will often find them being interviewed on Nightline or National News Programs when the subject of violence or out of control parents is being discussed in the news.

This has been quite a long post (I apologize to the webmaster if I went too long for this forum). If anyone would like additional information on the experiences and recommendations from our league with officiating please e-mail me direct. You can also visit the league on-line at http://www.mvpb.org and post there on the league's message board section.

borrowed from another officiating board:
"The only purpose of adults in youth sports
is as role models.
Once you cease to be a role model
Your precense is no longer required."

[Chris Winn]

I don't think that most parents and coaches are interested in "fairness"; they are usually only interested in their team winning. If Little Johnny's team wins, and he has a handful of errors, eveything is OK. If Little Johnny's team loses, and he has a handful of errors, then it's the umpire's fault that they lost. Several years ago, I called a kid out at second base. The coach comes running out of the dugout, and says, "Blue, that's 3 calls that have gone aginst me, and I figure you've cost me five runs". Before I tossed him, I asked him if he had accounted for the facts that his shortstop had at least 3 errors, and another kid had hit into a double play with the bases loaded.

[bluezebra]

Mark:

"And I hate to say it, but television is one of the big reasons why."

I don't hate to say it. In fact, I've been expounding this for years. I have heard only one announcer who knows the rules of his sport. And that is Chick Hearn of the Lakers. I have never heard a baseball announcer (and the former player "color" guys are pitiful) who knows the difference between a "foul ball" and "foul tip". Just today, the Rockies announcer said a ball that was fouled off the catcher's feet was "foul tipped". That makes, at least, 1,000 times. Has anyone heard a football announcer who knows the difference between a "muff" and a "fumble" on a kick? Many years ago, I was listening to an L. A. Rams' pre-season game. The Ram QB dropped back into the end zone to pass, and one of the linemen held a defender in the EZ. The ref signalled a safety, and the announcer went berserk. "I've been announcing NFL games for seven years, and I never heard of this". Dick Bass (former Ram RB) was the color guy. He never saw such a horrible call in the time he played ball. Of course, neither of these clowns ever read a rule book. And, the big problem is, they believe they know more than the officials, and the general public also thinks so.

Now these TV watchers go to their kids' games and go by what they saw and heard on TV. And, even worse, they, and even HS coaches, don't know the difference between pro rules and youth rules. If it were my decision, no one would be allowed to announce any sport until they took a course in rules from certified officials. And get a passing grade.

Bob

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by spots101

For the past 3 years I have been scheduling games for a local Pony League in my area (just on my own, no association). Two years ago it became apparent that we needed to go with all "patched" or experienced umpires. Prior to that I had, on occasion, used high school kids and older so that they could get some experience. Unfortunately however, it appeared that the parents wanted a perfect game called every time by the umps so that was the reason for the change.
Yesterday I just received a call from the organizer of the Bronco League (the one right below Pony). He is tired of hearing (and seeing) the parents complain and that league wants to use patched umpires as well.
The reason why I am posting this is to see what other situations umpires have experienced with parents and have you seen the same change (experienced umps doing lower level games) in your community as well.
If we want to see more umps come up through the ranks they need to start somewhere. But the overzealous parents seem to be keeping that from happening because they want to live out their baseball fantasies through their kids.

"Certified" Umpires are costly. If you start getting certified umps at the low levels, the FEES can really add up,especially if you have older divisions as well within your program.

There's one "quick fix" which some organizations are FINALLY going to and that is A ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY Unfortunately, it has come to this. If a parent can't keep their mouth shut it's SEE YA HAVE A NICE DAY -PERIOD. Use the California 3 Strike Rule. If a parent(s) can't get the message and it's their third time - BAN FROM THE LEAGUE.

You can't be NICE anymore because people take advantage. Once people GET THE MESSAGE, things will calm down.

IMO, no need to spend a lot of money at the lower divisions where many a score is lopsided anyway.

Pete Booth