Assignor Nightmares
 

All,

I don't assign anymore but now and then a nightmare comes to my attention that I pass on for your amusement. This one resulted in 4 ejections. The umpires did nothing wrong, other than to be at the wrong game at the wrong time:

FED rules, high school varsity game which is being televised on a local access station.

Top of 7th, home team leading by one run. The visitors lead off the inning with a double to put the tying run at 2nd. As the BU is pivoting in from position A, he notices that the BR missed 1st base, but no one else seems to have noticed. The BU nonchalantly takes position B. The pitcher gets ready to pitch and the home team announcer says over the PA system: "The telecast clearly shows that BR missed 1st base so you might want to appeal.

The pitcher correctly steps off the rubber and makes the proper appeal. :D

Peter

(One of the ejected was the announcer)

Okay, I'm hooked, finish the story
 

Peter,

Who else went?
How long did it take?
How long were the suspensions by the state authorities?
Do you have tape?

If I was the visiting manager, first base coach, or kid called out on appeal I know that I wouldn't have been sticking around to see the end of the game.

I'm not an umpire and I certainly aren't <i>beisbol</i> rules knowledgeable, but.....does the umpire have any choice but to allow the appeal?

Wow....

Not by ordinary rules. Some might wish to invoke 9.01(c) (or the corresponding FED rule, 10-something). Clearly, an advantage not intended by the rules has been given to one team.

Easily Fixable
 

....balk the pitcher as he steps off, now you can't appeal. :)



Edited to add smiley because somebody's sarcasm detector is broken.

My umpire manual is missing the mechanic that I should cheat to prevent one of the teams from cheating. :mad:

....sorry, I forgot the smiley. :)

The announcer is EJ'd that means 3 more.

My guess

The first base coach and the OM

That's 3.

Now you didn't give us the final outcome so perhaps the umpires got together and decided that since the Defense ORIGINALLY had no intention of appealing the missed base and only did so because of the PA announcer, then they reversed their decision and left R2 and second base. The decision could be based on the fact that No replay equipment is to be used and in a way that's precisely what happened.

Now here comes the DM and he in turn gets dumped which makes 4 Ej's

How did I do?

Pete Booth

The umpires absolutely got bushwhacked on this one BUT:
If both defensive and offensive personal got dumped then maybe the umps didn't act quite as decisively as they could have.

If they immediately tell both benches to take a chill pill, get together hash out what they want to do and then come to the coaches with their decision then only one side goes bonkers.
I hope we hear that it was the PA announcer and three defensive ejections.

My guess would be the R2 who is out for missing the base. Upon finding that he will be out, he utters a few "@***" at the BU and is tossed.

Then the 1st base coach, just because he's an assistant, followed by the head coach.

As far as rules, the BU has no choice but to call the runner out and continue.
Hey, the kid should have never missed the base to start with ...

thanks
David

Yeah!! Replays never show balks anyway.

But if the umpires call time and conference prior to the appeal being made, decide that an appeal in this case won't be allowed then he (BU) will never have to rule on the appeal.
The umpires integrity stay intact and only defensive personnel get ejected.

[[/QUOTE]

David there is a rule (I am at work and don't have the rule number) that prohibits the use of replay equipment.

In this instance (The PA announcing that the BR missed first base) is IMO equivalent to using Replay equipment hence the appeal should not be allowed because it's apprent from the OP that the Defense was NOT going to appeal. F1 was getting ready to pitch but then he heard the PA announcer and who at this point wouldn't appeal.

COump could be right in that the other 3 EJ's came from the defense but depending upon how the situation was handled there could have been EJ's from both sides.

Hopefully Peter will tell us exactly who got EJ'd in addition to the PA announcer.

Pete Booth

But this is FED and the replay is limited to the coaches, assistants, and bench personell. Would the PA announcer be considered part of the team?

I would say no. It would be the same as if it were a parent in the stands with a bullhorn etc,.

Unsportsmanlike, surely, but not necessarily covered by the rules.

As Peter said, wouldn't you hate to have been given that game?

thanks
David

Mde

Well, really, what would be the difference between the PA announcer saying he missed it, and a loud obnoxious dad yelling from the stands "Appeal First!!" One just has a louder voice. haha.

It sucks, but I think we don't have a choice but to allow the appeal. The PA announcer is then gone forever.

No different than a fan yelling it out. If he missed the base, he missed the base...I would never work a game that had that announcer again...I would have your assigner demand that...effective immediately.

[David from the OP

IMO, this is not equivalent to a Mom / Dad etc. yelling from the stands

The announcer basically said "according to replay (the telecast) B1 missed first base."

That IMO is WAY different then a parent saying Appeal First Appeal First.

I agree the umpires were in a pickle.

Peter has yet to post the outcome but my point was that the umpires could have gotten together and said that because of REPLAY the defense gained an unfair advantage not intended by the rules.

Pete Booth

If dad and the PA anouncer are equal, would you then eject dad for yelling?
I didn't think so, so at some level there is a difference worth ejecting over.

IMO, if you can eject PA for making the statement then you have grounds for not allowing the appeal

I suspect the announcer thought he was broadcasting TV only and not PA at that point (But who can be sure?).

CSFP result is no appeal permitted, R2 let's play. If the announcer was PA only he would be ejected for violating the no replay rule as he would be considered team staff.

"The telecast clearly shows that BR missed 1st base so you might want to appeal."

The PA announcer knew he was doing PA. He is done. I would probably let the DM follow as I would not allow his appeal. Also my other two are probably the broadcast team as they would have given the PA guy the footage. If there is not two in the booth, I would gather that number 4 could've been the AD who probably would have put up a fight. One thing for sure everyone is out of the box except for the official scorekeeper.

I'd speculate all were in a very small booth with one monitor. Hard not to look.

Sounds like the type of situation that your umpiring association should bring to the attention of the the State high school association. Let them decide what to do about it. I don't see that umpires on the field have any thing in the rules to guide them on this type of matter.

How about this way?

The PA announcer isn't dad-in-the-stands. The PA announcer is a game/team official. That's why you can eject him.

The PA announcer violated 3-3-1-f and 10-1-5.

Disallow the appeal as it was illegally discovered. 10-2-3-g

Like I said, I was not the assignor or the umpire so I do not know all the details of what happened. It was not even a game in my association. (Old assignors still talk to other assignors. :) )

I do not know any of the details of what happened in the press box other than the PA announcer was the bad guy.

The BU refused to make any call. He was new and had little experience but knew better than to call R2 out without consulting with the plate man. The two of them got together and while they were conferring, R2 and the pitcher got into a verbal confrontation and were both ejected. I am not sure exactly what their confrontation was about but we can assume it was about the missed base.

The defensive manager (home team) began yelling that he had signalled the pitcher prior to the offending PA announcement to make an appeal. The pitcher and the dugout loudly backed him up. The parents/fans from both teams joined in the action.

The offensive manager calmly approached the umpires and asked to talk privately. The defensive manager asked to join the conversation and was told to instead get the crowd under control. The defensive manager was eventually ejected but I do not know if it was failure to get the crowd under control or insisting that he was going to make an appeal even before the PA announcement. Anyway, the offensive manager told the umpires that he had seen the missed base and asked them to call R2 out so they could move on. The visiting team had a poor record and the game did not matter anyway. The offensive manager was on probation for previous problems with his behavior and that of his players and he could not afford any more negative situations. He was not sure if he could survive the ejection of R2 and did not want any more fuel on the fire. He asked for a minute with his players in the dugout to prepare them before the umpires announced their decision. He was in the first base dugout and acknowledged that most of the dugout had seen the BR miss first base.

While the offensive manager was in the dugout with his players, the AD for the home team walked on the field and asked the umpires to stop the game. The umpires never had to make the call and everybody went home with a little encouragement from the police who had arrived by this time.

I have no idea how the game was resolved.

This is why umpires should be well seasoned before they move up. Rules knowledge, bionic ball/strike - safe/out calling, and gazelle like pro mechanics do not prepare the umpire for crap like this. Regrettably, crap like this is normal in baseball. The only thing that saved these umpires was that two adults happened to show up for the game - the visiting manager and the home team AD.

Peter

It's this kind of seasoning I have referred to in the past as:

"It is the ability to step on someone's throat when necessary, while not getting any blood on your shoes."

I agree with Rich Ives. Forced to make this appeal decision, I wouldn't have and would've told the defensive manager to pound sand and then stepped back to enjoy the aftermath. People are stupid.

Nice Try Rich.

Unless the PA announcer is considered an "attendant or other bench personnel" (I think that is a stretch), 3-3-1-f would not apply. He is not a game official either (the umpires are), so 10-1-5 has not been violated. As for the "illegally discovered appeal," I think that is inventing new rules rather than making a decision on a point not covered by the rules (10-2-3-g).

I would allow the appeal. I would also allow a protest by the visiting team and let the suits decide the penalty (if any).

I do like your style Rich. If there is a way to dump the PA announcer, I'm all for it.

10-1-1 includes the words "team attendant". Use the meaning liberally. It has language similar to OBR 9.01(b) [below]


9.01 (b) Each umpire is the representative of the league and of professional baseball, and is authorized and required to enforce all of these rules. Each umpire has authority to order a player, coach, manager or club officer or employee to do or refrain from doing anything which affects the administering of these rules, and to enforce the prescribed penalties.

Also see PBUC 1.26 - The PA anouncer at pro games is part of the home team.

Rich IMO even seasoned umpires would not have anticipated this UNLESS in the area where Peter is talking about it's Commonplace to have PA announcers.

The ONLY time I have done games with PA announcers is for Playoffs and Tournaments.

Also, from the actions of the DM it sounds like this guy "was a real piece of work"
He is responsible for Riling his players and the crowd and in FED under rule 3 there is a Penalty (ejection) associated with this.

FWIW people need to chill out. Police arrival, game stopped most likely because of crowd problems, etc. all because of what is supposed to be a simple baseball game.

Pete Booth

Ahhh, HHH! Nice to see you back, Pete.

I've read a lot of interesting resolutions to your "nightmare" but in reality, there are only two things that need to be done in a case like this.

1. The umpires immediatly call TIME and eject the PA announcer. This is covered in all three rule sets and needs to be done immediatly.
2. If the defense attempts to appeal the missed base, this must be honered.

Now hold on all of you.....! Would you deny an appeal if a parent hollered about the missed base and the defense listened? Of course not! You will have a problem with the offensive coach but you will have to deal with that. It is a valid appeal so you must act on it. Of course, you might get a balk out it because you killed the ball to eject the PA announcer so that may be a plus.

Would you not consider that the info was gained illegally by a "team attendant"?


Interesting scenario though.

dash,

There has been precedent set in MiLB and you also cant forget the infamous "Three Blind Mice" ejection...

I'd use the term as liberally as possible.

No Rich, because I do not know what is in the minds of the defense. What if they were already prepared to make the appeal? I would not know that. So I deal with the problem (get rid of the PA announcer), then deal with the appeal, then deal with the offensive coach. Now if you (or anyone else) can show me something from a casebook or the MLBUM to negate that appeal, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But to just say "it is wrong" is incorrect.

Let me add that this would have been a great question to post to Bob Drake - too bad that site was closed and he was "chased" off this site.

Rob Drake might have been chased out, but Bob might still be here! :-)

This may just be one of the rare occasions where the rules and the best interest of the game just don't mesh.

So when it comes right down to it, what's more important
following the letter of the law or maintaining the best interest of the game?

Depending on how you answer this question may determine how you rule on this play.

This is not a useful question. The rules do not address this situation or any like it, so following "the letter of the law" is not an option.

Remember that the problems all arose because the OFFENSE made a mistake, namely BR missing 1B.

The PA announcer made the next mistake, namely announcing the offense's mistake. Eject the PA announcer to deal with his mistake.

Now the defense wants to appeal the missed base. As an umpire, I have no definite knowledge whether they would have appealed without the information from the PA announcer. Since the offense made the initial mistake, I must give the benefit of the doubt to the defense and grant the appeal.

Rich, although the the PA announcer illegally announced the missed base, it does not follow that this was how the defense came to know about the missed base: they might first have seen it. Again, the benefit of the doubt must go to the defense here.

If, as in the actual case, the O-coach comes out and says to grant the appeal, that just means that he won't be ejected. On this play, anyway...

Ozzy from the OP

I have underlined the relevant passage from the OP

The defense was not even thinking about appealing otherwise instead of F1 getting ready to pitch F3 would be saying "throw me the ball the runner missed the bag"

At least the way I am reading it it is APPARENT that absent the announcement from the PA announcer F1 would have simply pitched the ball to B1.

You say "show me the rule"

There is a rule against the use of REPLAY equipment. The PA announcer said
The telecast clearly shows I interpret that to mean that the PA announcer is saying Replay shows that B1 missed first base so you better appeal.

In summary: The defense was not going to appeal no matter what the DM / players / Crowd said afterwards otherwise they would have done so. They had plenty of time. Heck F1 was getting ready to pitch and as mentioned if the PA announcer had not opened his mouth F1 would have pitched the ball meaning "off bets off" as far as an appeal goes.

Therefore IMO you do have a rule to use for denying the appeal. Also, even if there was no rule, IMO the defense had no intentions of appealing until they heard the PA announcer.

This was indeed a tough day for the men in blue but in reading Peter's response I don't know how the EJ's could have been avoided. R2/F1 jawing at each other is not the umpires fault and the behavior of the DM is also not their fault. The DM was trying to pull a "fast one"

Pete Booth

[QUOTE]Agreed but according to the rules the runner has deemed to have Touched the base unless properly appealed.

You have plenty of knowledge. F1 was on the mound ready to pitch. If the defense was going to appeal they had plenty of time. IMO, from most of our experiences when the defense wants to appeal they do so immediately without hesitation. You hear a player or coach say "he missed first"
I think it's safe to say by the STRICT wording of the OP that the defense had no intention of appealing UNTIL they heard the announcement

Also, it was the way the announcement was made. In other words the PA announcer had "indisbutable evidence" that the runner failed to touch first base.

Pete Booth

I know that most on this board hate to give the rats any credit, but this manager deserves some credit. Granted, he was on probation for previous problems, but that normally wouldn't stop a manager from going off especially in a situation like this. The offensive manager clearly handled himself better than anyone from the home team and should be commended for his actions.

Also, I'd hate to have to write up that game report to send into the state. Would probably take all night!

Talk about a Freudian slip! :eek:

Pete, you make a good point about the PA announcer using a replay of some sort. I have no argument there. That part of the equation has been removed by ejecting the PA announcer first. It is very important to make this the second move (the first is to call TIME) as this shows the announcer's input into the game is a complete violation and is dealt with on the spot.

Now you quoted HHH's post where he says that it was apparent that the defense was not going to appeal. It may seem this way but really, how can you be sure? You know that the defensive manager is going to insist that he saw the runner miss the base (he's be a fool if he didn't)! Just as a Judge on the bench would not try to assume what is in someone's head, neither should we as umpires.

Mbyron made a good point in that the offense made the first mistake by failing to touch the base. Granted, we assume that the runner has touched the base (even when we see him miss it) but that is how it has to be. If properly appealed, we reverse our call from safe to an out.

Finally, to go back to the use of replay, I believe that the rule is referring to the defense using the replay. If this were the case, the appeal would not be allowed at all by rule. But it was the PA announcer that used the replay. Not unlike the father who says "Coach, he missed 1st base, I have it on tape". As long as the defense does not view the replay, they haven't violated the rule. All the manager has to say is "Yeah, I heard the guy but I was going to appeal anyway.".

I still say that if the defense puts forth an appeal in this case, we have to honor it.

Ozzy,

Based on the rules, I think you have the best solution. No matter what we do here someone is likely to protest, so why not make the best decision we can based on the rule book?

Take the protest & let the league figure this out. I suspect the end result would be uphold the appeal & a long suspension or termination of at least the PA announcer and perhaps other booth staff.

"Just as a Judge on the bench would not try to assume what is in someone's head, neither should we as umpires." - Ozzy


C'mon Ozzy - you do that every day when judging intent or the lack thereof. It comes with the territory.

I don't think I've ever been suprised by an appeal. You can usually hear the players and coaches talking about it as soon as playing action stops. Also, keep in mind, with a dead ball appeal there's no need for the pitcher to throw over to the base - he, or anyone else can simply request the appeal.

--------------------
FED 8-2 Penalty

(clipped)
A dead-ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with or without the ball by verbally stating that the runner missed the base or left the base too early.
--------------------

I wasn't there but it seems pretty obvious from the OP that there was no intent for the defense to appeal the missed base until the PA announcer chimed in. For that matter you might conclude that the PA announcer only added his 2 cents because he felt his team had missed something. There must have been some time elapsed if the announcer had a chance to view the replay.

Nope - Golden League is an Indie & NOT affiliated with MiLB, which is why they got away with a stupid stunt like having the PA clown work an inning as an umpire.

It's not the same here, Rich. You know full well (from a coach's point of view), all you have to do is say, "Mario, I was going to appeal anyway!". So how can I stop you from appealing?

Please, I am not trying to be difficult here, Rich. Let's run through this:
I've just ejected the PA Announcer and Pete wants to make an appeal that your runner missed the base. Unless you can come up with something that we can stand firmly on Rich, I am going to allow Pete to appeal your runner!

Yes I would say "I was going to appeal anyhow".

It may or not be true of course.

If all the team's actions indicate they didn't have a clue until the announcement you should be giving it some thought. I have yet to see a team treat an appeal as an afterthought. They're too anxious for outs and killing runs.

Ozzy I already gave you a rule - The use of Replay.

I realize we were NOT there but from YOUR experience when the defense WANTS to appeal it's obvious. The coach is either screaming or one of the players is screaming.

Re-Read the thread. I am strictly going by what Peter posted. The Defense had NO intention of appealing. if they did they would have appealed IMMEDIATELY. Heck F1 was ready to pitch to the next batter.

Now you have a PA announcer that for all practical Purposes said: According to replay we have indistbutable evidence that the runner missed first base.

The runner is deemed to have touched the base unless PROPERLY appealed.

How can you grant the appeal when the defense had no intentions of appealing until they heard the PA announcer.


Also, do not equate what the PA announcer said to some Parent in the stands. Many times parents are screaming in the stands and the coach simply ignores them anyway.

Pete Booth

Pete,

I think you're trying to find a way to go against the rules. By rule, if they want to appeal they can. What happens off the field doesn't dictate a change from that.

Now we can eject anyone from the park, (we just get our administrators to handle it all the time with fans, etc. ), but I don't see where the defensive team can be penalized for something they didn't do.

Now if the guys had called the coach in the dugout or something and we had proof of it, but the rule about replay is pretty much clear, guys on the field of play, etc.,

At least that's how I see it,

Thanks
David

My take is this:

If we can eject the announcer because he is "team staff", then it stands to figure that the defensive team in this case did in fact obtain the information illegally. Thus, the announcer is ejected, and you can refuse the appeal because it is not a "legal" appeal.

Seems tidy enough. :)

The dad in the stand stuff is something totally different. Dad is not "team staff", and we have no jurisdiction over what they do. But we do have jurisdiction over the announcer and his actions! In my opinion, the announcer using replay equipment is no different than the coach himself using it!

[QUOTE]I am not going against the rules or using CSFP I am going BY the rule.

As REI said and I agree with him, The PA announcer using replay equipment is the same as if the Coach had used it hence it is against the rules.

The Defense ON THEIR OWN has the right to appeal not from the use of video equipment.

As I stated from my and I bet other's experiences as well, when the Defense wants to appeal it's immediate.

I am going STRICTLY by what Peter wrote. From his description of the events it's apparent that the DEFENSE had no intention of appealing. F1 IN FACT was ready to pitch to the next batter.

Also, Parents from the stands are NOT the same as a PA announcer.

Perhaps with this EVENT a new rule or interpretation will come out.

IMO I am NOT eventing a rule simply to come up with the desired outcome. You cannot use REPLAY equipment

Side Note to Peter

Peter is it possible to have one of those umpires in the game Post either themselves or through you if they Judged that absent the PA announcer the Defense had any intention of appealing. From what you describe it doesn't sound so.

Thanks

Pete Booth

I hear you, Pete! And I understand you would use the "replay" to not allow the appeal. I also am glad that we heard from Rich Ives in that he felt that he would in fact state that he was going to appeal anyway.

So here is where we stand:

• You would deny the appeal and the game would go to protest by the defense.
• I would allow the appeal and allow the game to go to protest by the offense.

So how about we do this? You still have contacts up in MLB. Fire off the OP with our two rulings and protests. I really would like to see what the "Big Guys" would do with this. I'll try to do the same at the clinic I am assisting in this weekend if the weather holds. Let's see what we come up with.

This is a FED rules OP. The penalty for use of replay equipment is spelled out in 3-3-1-f. For the first offense, warn the coach. For the next offense, eject the coach. There is no other penalty.

I can see bending the rules a bit to dump the PA jerk. But if you disallow the appeal because it was obtained "illegally" (and there's nothing in the rules about that), you are going to lose the protest for misapplying the rule.

Ozzy FWIW

This was a FED game so under the OLD FED appeal rule this would have been a non issue. One of the reasons I personally liked the OLD FED rule was for situations such as this.

Under the old FED appeal rule when playing action was over as in the OP the BU would have simply declared the runner out.

All the shenanigans that followed , AD stopping the game, Police escort etc. most likely would not have happened.

There still might have been some EJ's but not the "hoopla" that followed.

Pete Booth

Pete

As you know I too am still a fan of the old FED rule no matter how dumb some people think it is.

It helped me get the games over with a lot faster too ... :D

Thanks
david

I like appeals because they usually get screwed up! But in this case, I will agree with you on the old FED rule. I do not like the new FED appeal rule with it's Dead Ball Appeal and "if you screw it up you can re-do it" garbage! If appeals are what they want then use the OBR rules.

"Sure, son, you can appeal"
"That's a balk! No appeal!" or "TIME! Ball's out of play! End of the appeal!"

Hey Pete and Rich,

I found an interesting tid-bit in the MLBUM, Section IV - Conduct and Responsibilities of Umpires:

IV Standards for Removal from the Game.... one of the points reads:

During an argument if a manager, coach, or player makes reference to having observed a video replay that purportedly contradicts the call under dispute, such person is subject to immediate ejection from the game.

So if the manager wants to appeal and admits to hearing the PA Announcer, he too gets ejected too under OBR!

Also for the PA Announcer, the MLBUM says:

2.24 PUBLIC ADDRESS ANNOUNCER
The public address announcer shall make all announcements that are directed by the umpire regarding lineups, Official Baseball Rules, and other pertinent information. The public address announcer shall make such announcements immediately as directed by the umpire. The public and the media should be informed if there is an unusual or technical play or incident during the playing of a game.

In order to avoid confusion, public address announcers are not to announce lineup or substitution changes until the plate umpire signals such to the announcer. Violations of this policy are to be reported to the Office of the Commissioner.

I could find nothing else.

Okay, here is my .02:

For everyone who thinks the appeal should be allowed, let me ask:

Would you call the BR safe?

I would really be tempted to do it in this case....

I would be willing to change the call to safe. However I would not call time and confer with my plate partner. I've seen it done before, and it makes the base ump look clueless. If I'm not sure, I'll be pointing to PU and saying something along the lines of "on the bag?". Then I'll make the call whatever the case may be.

No, no, a thousand times no.

I just don't see why this is so complicated. The PA guy screws up. Fine, deal with that (nobody seems to have any issue here). Why is that a license now to ignore rules, make up categories like "illegal information" or "illegally acquired information," and to generally behave as if this were the end of the world?

I'm granting the appeal and ruling correctly on it. I'm certainly not going to lie! When the O-coach comes out to complain, I'll say, "Coach, are you saying that your runner touched the base?"

He'll either say no, lie, or try to change the subject. Option 1, we're done; option 2, we're going with my judgment; option 3, I'll explain that, by rule, when a runner misses a base, the defense has a right to appeal it, other screwups notwithstanding.

All,

Unfortunately, I do not have any further info on this incident, but in looking through my assignor archives, I found a similar incident involving one of our umpires.

In the days before formal FED appeals when umpires called runners out for missing bases without any appeal, one of our umpires, who had only worked FED ball, was doing a game under pro rules. After a play ended, while the pitcher was mounting the rubber with no apparant intention to appeal, the umpire called the runner out for missing a base. The offense was furious, the defense then initiated the proper appeal, and the runner was called out.

The only difference between the case that we are debating here and this case is that in the PA announcer probably acted with malice and the umpire new to pro rules acted out of ignorance. Regardless, the defense learned of the missed base outside the intent of the rules.

The only proper ruling in both cases is to call the runner out. Anything else is making up rules. I have read the whole thread and I am appalled at the apparant willingness of some umpires to play God and try to make things "fair." Our job is to enforce the rules. League officials are allowed to make things fair if they want. But for umpires, the only correct course of action is eject the announcer, call R2 out, and move on.

On the other hand, league presidents (e.g., the AL president who overuled the umpires in the famous pine tar incident involving George Brett) have more leeway. It would be entirely appropriate for a league president to meet out punishment by awarding a victory to the visiting team for the outrageous conduct of the home team PA announcer. It is entirely innappropriate for an umpire to attempt to do the same thing.

Look at the NCAA. The governing boards regularly take away victories from teams that are found to have illegal players, recruiting violations, etc. On field officials never do that, however.

Peter

In checking with my contacts in pro ball and the NCAA, I've been told that the appeal stands and that regardless of whether the P.A. announcer is dismissed from the game, higher ups would deal with him.

I disagree.
If the rules don't address this situation then by the letter of the law you must allow the appeal. You said so yourself.
Which goes back to my original question.
Which is more important, the letter of the law or the best interest of the game?
It appears that more than a few are struggling with allowing the appeal because in their gut they realize it's unfair, even if they can't come up with an exact rule rule to disallow it.
When you're on the field you don't have days to consider the sitch, dozens of umps to bounce your thoughts off of and plenty of time to peruse the rule and case books, you have to make a relatively quick decision on a sitch you probably never considered before.
If you're a letter of the law kind of guy then I'm suggesting you're going to fall back on whatever rule you know and apply it regardless of outcome.
If you're a best interest of the game guy you may determine the outcome you feel is in the best interest of the game and then find a rule to sell your outcome.

One of these statements is about officiating. The other one is crap. Endorsing both is idiocy. That is, of course, just my opinion.

I've come across a few of those of those - they are not real umpires.;)

Thanks
David

First off I don't remember endorsing either one. I simply proposed how the two mindsets may come up with different rulings in odd situations.

Let me give you a sitch and tell me how you'd handle it.

I was doing 3 man last week when this happened.

R1, live ball, I'm in C

F1 steps on rubber in set position, PU is behind F2 but still casual.
PU had just asked for more game balls, a coach from 1st base dugout catches PUs attention (non verbal) and had two previously fouled gameballs.
PU steps out from behind plate as a bench player runs out the balls.
F1 seeing the PU step away to retrieve balls casually steps off the rubber but with wrong foot first. In C position I'm seeing the same thing F1 is and I let the balk slide. My P in short A however does not notice what's happening at the plate and calls a balk.

Would you enforce the balk?
If so, then I'd say you're a by the rules guy
If not, then the best interest of the game trumped the rules.

I believe there are many many good umpires that would wave off this balk.

So like it or not it's a fact of umpiring that both mindsets exist and your mindset relative to this question may very well influence your ruling.

No because the ball is dead at this point. There is no such thing as a dead ball balk.

Why is the ball dead?

Do you allow the ball to remain alive while obtaining more baseballs from bench personnel or when changing out baseballs with the catcher? Even if not explicitly called, time should be out in this situation.

Why? The PU receiving an allocation of balls doesn't seem to warrant time being called in a 3-man game with R1 only. Help me to understand.

Changing out balls with catcher is by rule a dead ball.
Receiving balls from the bench, to my knowledge, is not.

In this case no one killed it.
So do you enforce the balk or no?

My .02 continued
 

Men, I asked the question because as I read the situation, I thought the BU was not sure the BR hit 1B. I stand corrected, the BU did see him miss 1B, you have to allow the appeal and call him out.

[QUOTE]With all due respect Peter MLB umpires have already done this.

Last year in the Indians / O's game we had a run put back on the board some 3 innings later - Show me the rule that would allow them to do that.

This year Mets vs. Braves - We had a catch changed to no catch. Final Ruling: The umpires retroactively declared the ball dead at the moment of the call reversal and moved everyone up a base.

Therefore, IMO it is not that some of us want to play GOD and make things fair but making a call that is in the best interest of the game. If MLB umpires can do it so can us amateurs.

Pete Booth

The bolded areas show the mistake that was made in this case. The PU should have done the same thing a pro umpire does when he requests more baseballs from the dugout. The umpire will signal the number of balls he wants from the bench, then wait until after the next pitch or play to have the ball boy run them out to him. He does not hold up the game with the pitcher on his plate and ready to go, which wastes time and interupts the flow.

This was poor game management. The PU should have held up his hand like a stop sign toward the coach who was getting his attention, and said something to the effect of, "next play, Skip," or "Hang on to 'em." Then after the next pitch or play, had the bench player trot out the baseballs. The pitcher should not have been put in that position to start with, as he was ready, and the ball was alive and in play.

I agree.
I never said proper mechanics were used, but that doesn't answer the Q
Would you enforce the balk?

What balk? I don't have a balk. Same as if the batter steps out of the box out of frustration of the unnecessary delay. He didn't ask for Time before stepping out, but there was an obvious umpire-created delay on the field, so it's nothing. Same here. Pivot foot, non-pivot foot, who cares? The bottom line is that he was ready to pitch, and Chucklehead working the dish decided to throw off everyone's timing so he could add some balls to his bag. Whoopie.

Now, if everyone is in position and ready to go, and then he steps off with his non-pivot foot, by all means balk it.:)

Thank you.

Although some may think your answer is crap I agree as you do, that sometimes the best interest of the game supercedes the rules.

Then going back to the OP, IMO, deny the appeal, eject the PA and play ball.

here's your milb precedent if you are still wanting one. scroll down about halfway and look for "ejected" as the header on the left. :) mmmmm. boiling point.

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...2742/index.htm

I also wouldn't go so far as to say that my solution supersedes any rules, it just makes sense to do it that way. The ball in this case was not ready for play, so no harm, no foul.