3rd Strike In The Dirt
 

New ump here (2nd year) and I (base ump) had a situation arise in a JV game with a more veteran partner (6 yrs plate ump).

No outs and runners on 1st and 3rd. Batter swings at strike 3 in dirt and runs towards first base. The catcher takes off after the batter/runner and tags him out about 45 feet up 1st base line. I hesitated making a call because my partner should have called the batter out immediately as 1st base was occupied and it was not 2 outs. Runner from 3rd started to come home, but went back to 3rd. Runner on 1st never started to advance.

Next batter... basically the same thing occurs (arrrrgggghhhh in my head, but not out loud.) This time catcher throws to first base - again I hesitated but make out signal. Runner on first never advanced again, but R3 scored on play.

In between innings, I went to discuss both scenarios with my partner and he agreed he blew the call on loudly insisting batter is out. No problem there, however, the defensive coach comes over and rants about blow call allowed run to score in a close game... He did also say so after the 2nd strike 3 in the dirt. I never uttered a word, letting my partner explain everything to the coach. He did own up to the fact that he should have yelled batter out.

In that event, nothing could be done because the catcher should know the rules in my eyes and shouldn't have bothered throwing to first. Correct?

Then 3rd hypothetical situation (discussed after game with partner): Bases loaded, 2 outs. Strike 3 in dirt to batter. He advances towards first legally this time. Catcher does NOT throw to first but tags home to "put out" R3 as he is "forced" to run towards the plate. Can this be done OR does the catcher have to throw the batter/runner out at first?

Also, I know catcher interference on a pitched ball (catcher's glove is hit by swinging bat) is an award of 1st base for the batter. What if the catcher pops up and I the plate ump don't see it, (note there was also a foul tip to the backstop on the play) but the batter and offensive coach are going crazy... I did not award anything because I couldn't and didn't see it.

Any help or comments appreciated...

Thanks everyone.

How, exactly, did he blow this call? While its good preventive umpiring to say "he's out" in this situation, it is incumbent upon the players to know the situation and the relevant rule. Don't confuse failing to use preventive umpiring and extending courtesies with blown calls, the two are different.

Point taken
 

Thanks TCar... Bad choice of wording (ducking that left hook), but in my teachings I was told to just let it be known by saying batter is out. Eliminates any doubt although I know the players and coaches need to know the rules also.

And yes it actually happened two batters in a row... Never can tell what you will see in HS ball...

But on the bases loaded scenario 2 outs, the catcher can't simply tag home can he?

Yes.

Yes he can

We have bases loaded 2 outs and the batter became a runner on an uncaught third strike.

The runners by the fact that the batter became a runner are forced to advance, hence all F2 needs to do is touch home plate.

It's no different then if B1 hit the ball to F4 who simply stepped on second base to get the force out on R1.

Pete Booth

Thanks for the clarification
 

Guys thanks for clearing that up in my mind. I didn't look at it that way and I didn't actually see it in the NFHS rule book (unless I missed it... Is it referenced there?)

I agree with Tc. It's F2's responsibility to know the rule. By yelling "He's out, he's out" you are basically coaching and giving advantage to defense. At the JV level F2 should darn well know thisrule.

You have no call to make.



Did he signal strike?
I never verbalize strike on a swinginging strike 3 out unless it's a check swing strike.




At this point you legitimized f2's action by signaling out. There was no call for you to make.
It was you and not PU that may have caused the confusion on this one.



Good heads up play by R3

He certainly could have yelled but I don't. He may as well be yelling "first base occupied don't throw it"
I use the same mechanic on all swinging strike 3 outs. No verbal and bring the hammer down accross my body.
Swinging strike 3s in the dirt I use the same non verbal mechanic as all other non strike 3 calls.



It's a force out at the plate. Touch of HP is all that's necessary.


Don't want to be nit picky, but as an ump you need to know the lingo.
Foul tips cannot go to back stop.
Foul tips by definition are caught. Foul balls go to the back stop.

You can't award for an action you did not see. Typically I've found that it is obvious when the catcher's glove is hit by the bat. It's a distinct sound. However, you can always ask your partner if he saw anything (in a closed meeting). Chances are he'll not see anything so you have a foul ball.

-jsoh

Ditto
 

CO ump articulated your sitch perfect. ;)

No he shouldn't. It's a swinging strike 3. No verbal on that. It's the same mechanic as a caught (swinging) 3rd strike.
Not a good time to do that. Wait a few innings or discuss it in your post-game.
Bad defense allowed the run to score, nothing else.

If you get into the bad habit of calling the batter out on a dropped 3rd strike when he cannot advance, sooner or later you will do it with 2 outs when he can attempt to advance. Call the strike. That's the only call that needs to be made.

I think you'll find that your "silence" approach has been changed to announcing the out by many umpire associations since the Eddings play a couple of years back.

I don't say a word on a routine swining caught third strike. Just hammer it in like I do every other routine swinging strike.

However, if the ball is close the dirt, the catcher NEEDS to know what you have called. Remember, he can't see you.

What I do, and this is in accordance with other MLB umps, is hammer it in if it is caught, and give a low verbal to the catcher saying "catch".

If the ball hits the dirt, give a safe sign (before any strike is indicated). Also verbalize no catch so the batter and catcher can know what you have called.

On a check swing 3rd strike in the dirt, things can get tricky. A point at the batter exclaiming "Yes, he did!" followed by your safe mechanic and verbalizing softly (No-Catch) is accepted now.

Remember, batter and catcher can not see your mechanics. Something must be verbalized so they know what you have called. It is not "coaching", it is umpiring. Informing players of what you have called.

What would I tell you if on a close play at second I just didn't give any mechanic or verbal? Well, that is what you are doing to the catcher and batter if you don't give a verbal on a D3K.

Edited to add:

In the OP sitch, the umpire does not need to verbalize anything unless we had a check swing. A simple strike mechanic is all that is necessary. Because there is no way that this batter is not OUT, we don't need to say anything. F2, batter, and coaches should all know he is out. F2 is at fault for taking the batter's bait, intended or not.

What's so hard with "batter's out, batter's out"!?

If a guy is out anywhere else we verbalize it. Now all of a sudden players and coaches should know when someone is out or not and it us up to them to know better?

Don't blame them, make the call when there is a call to be made!

I would give one "bater's out" After that, I say nothing. If the batter takes off for first and draws a throw that is just a mental error on F2.

As far as the interference, You can't call what you don't see. You can however, sometimes, call what you hear.

If you say nothing and the catcher overthrows to first thinking the batter wasn't automatically out, the catcher/defensive coach will often blame you for not making a call. What else is new? The umpire gets blamed for everything.

Hint: Look at all the conditions where a batter becomes a batter-runner.

Then, look at all the rules governing runners (and how they are put out).

Now, put the two together...

On a swinging third strike in the dirt with runner on 1B and less than 2 outs I will always call the batter out forcefully so nothing foolish goes on like the catcher throwing the ball down the RF line. "He's out, he's out" will generally stop all foolishness. No catcher is throwing to 1b to get a runner who is already out on my watch. This situation happened last night, it happened tonight, it will probably happen tomorrow night. The batter-runner makes it about 10 feet before they stop because they know they are OUT.

It's my job to announce outs and everybody in the park will know it. I disagree with leaving players to think about it.

Because with a runner on first there is no way this batter can become a batter/runner unless he hits the ball (outside of CI). Everybody in the park should know that. If F2 doesn't know it, its his problem, not mine to correct.

Like I said in my previous post, if the situation can have batter become B/R, I will let the catcher know what I've called. If he's out when he's swung... catcher should know that. We, as umpires, have a code not to say anything when a batter strikes out swinging. Everybody knows he's out, why show him up?

Unless there is a question about whether he is actually out or not, such as with 1st base unoccupied or 2 outs and you have a ball in the dirt... just signal your strike and let fools be fools.

Yes it's referenced in the FED rule book

FED rule 2.29.3 Definition of a Force

Pete Booth

If I see F2 about to make a play to 1B on a third strike where B1 does not become a runner. I verbalize once: "Batter's out." Once again, I do this only when B1 runs to first and F2 pops up likes he's gonna hurl the horsehide.

It's not to make myself feel better; it's to avert a fugly sitch where all heck breaks loose.

I don't feel this is aiding the defense.

Harrumph.

I agree there are times when F2 and the batter need to know what the call is (the OP is not one of them) and, since they can't see me, a verbal mechanic is called for. If the B/R can advance on a DTS, I will call the strike first, then "no catch" with safe sign (priorities are, in order, strike/ball, fair/foul (N/A here), catch/no catch). With any runners on (and B/R can advance on a DTS), if there is a checked swing that I have balled, I will immediately go to my partner "did he go?" without being asked.

Rich Ives: Can you enlighten me as to the Eddings play? Maybe I need to make a change. Thanks.

I'm not Rich, but here's the play. World Series (game 6?) A J Pierzinski at bat (I'm sure I misspelled that) with 2 strikes and 2 outs. Pitch near the dirt, batter swings. F2 thinks he caught it and rolls the ball to the mound. BR takes off thinking F2 didn't catch it. Doug Eddings, PU, says nothing and watches all of this transpire.

With BR standing on 1B, the umpires huddle, determine no catch, and leave BR on 1B. Next batter doubles, runner scores, White Sox win, go on to win the Series. One umpire's call turned the tide (or so many Cardinals fans will tell you).

One more thing: Eddings signaled the swing (hand straight out) AND the out (hammer). That didn't seem to matter.

Thanks MB - I remember it now. That is, for sure, a "need to know if it's a catch" situation. Can't be silent there.

But on a DTS when the B/R cannot advance, I'm calling the strike and nothing else. If you loudly call "batter's out! batter's out!" when the B/R cannot advance, as some have suggested, sooner or later you will do it with 2 outs and the bases loaded. And everyone stops. Now what?

If you never call it, you will never F it up.

Somewhere in the FED case book, there's a case where the PU is instructed to "forcefully" call the batter out when he attempts to run in a situation when he can't. (okay -- I could probably word that in a better way.)

It's not everytime the batter is out.

I use that at all levels -- telling the runners they don't need to leave the base and telling the defense they don't need to make a play.

ymmv.

I'll add a comment on the "ball in the dirt" call.

As described by a MLB umpire addressing our local association, here is a little twist on the uncaught third strike play. First point: always signal the strike. If you are normally a hammerin' kind of guy (hammer signal on strikes), on this play use a point to first signal the strike, then do your verbal "no catch" and give the safe signal.

In fact, more than just a typical point, he demonstrated an exagerated and prolonged point, holding the right arm straight out to the side a bit longer than you pointer's would normally point a strike.

This clearly differentiates between a "strike" signal and a hammer "out" signal. And the reason he gave us for this method was the Doug Eddings play.

As I recall that play, Eddings did not use a point to signal the strike- he made a hammer signal. In post gamme interviews and explanations, Eddings was pressed about having signalled the batter out (hammer). He explained that was his normal strike signal and he was merely signalling the strike.

Hence the "point this one" mechanic. The umpire that realyed this to our group did so in the spring following Eddings call in the ALCS, and noted that this mechanic was devised to specifically address such a situation.

When there is a "dropped 3rd strike," EVERYBODY on the field should know exactly what the situation is. Everybody has had the opportunity to get the count and know the number of outs. Everybody should have noticed if 1B was occupied.

Therefore you are under no obligation to say "the batter is out" in the situation if the defense gets confused. The players have to know the rules.

I have seen batters run to 1B when they were not entitled to and it caused other runners to be confused and get put out, even double plays! I have also seen situations where batters run to 1B when they were not entitled to and it caused the fielders to become confused and when they played on the batter who had struck out it allowed other runners to advance and even score. The confusion can go both ways.

You are also under no obligation to call, “the batter’s out!” although many umpires do. However, unless you are very sure of yourself and if you think you will not screw it up and accidentally say the batter is out when he is not, I suggest you never call it. The players have to know the rules.
When the pitcher throws the pitch that becomes the 3rd strike that is not caught, all of the defensive players had ample opportunity before that pitch to see that first base was occupied and they all had had ample opportunity before the pitch find out how many outs there were. This information is easy to get. If the catcher has ample opportunity to see that first base is occupied and to find out that there is one out BEFORE the pitcher throws the pitch which became the 3rd strike, why would he throw the ball to 1B when the runner runs? It is because he is not thinking. He is expecting you (the umpire) to do his job for him.

The response is simple when a coach complains to you should have called the batter out so the batter who ran to 1B could not confuse or deceive his catcher into throwing the ball to 1B unnecessarily: "Coach, I'm sure you've taught your players the rules! Before your pitcher threw the pitch, I'm sure your catcher noticed that first base was occupied and I'm sure he knew there were less than two outs. If he knew this why would he throw the ball to 1B when he knew the runner is already out? That information was available to him, and everybody, before the pitch was thrown. Why did YOU tell him NOT to throw it? I can't penalize the batter for running, even if he did it on purpose. Deception is part of the game."

I remember the play quite clearly. Eddings made TWO signals.
1. He pointed straight out to the side -- the same extended point that your MLB guy recommends -- which signaled the swing. It was a good solid swing, no doubt that he went around.
2. He hammered. What did that mean? Now he says it meant a strike; but then what did the point mean? His hammer meant an out, which he later "took back."

Ugly ugly ugly umpiring, at the highest level and at a crucial moment.

He must have felt like $hit for a long time after that play. And he REALLY must have felt like $hit for the rest of that game. I feel for ya Doug.

Guess you haven't seen the web sites devoted to Doug.

Yes, your memory is better than the account I gave.

Here's a clip. Maybe the "point" was half a safe signal...:D

http://www.firedoug.com/blowncall.htm

Knowing the situation
 

The FED ruling requires the umpire to state that the batter's out after a DTS, w/1st base occupied and less than 2 outs. For some reason, it applies and most umpires in my area follow these FED instructions. I always thought it was coaching one team or the other, as Richard Siegel discussed in his post. I know the play was an effective coaching strategy to use against "weaker" opponents. Since implementing the verbal "batter's out" call, I have seen the opportunities diminish for a cheap run to score or for a cheap out to occur on the basepath. I can't figure out if this is a good thing or not, but I suppose the "quality" of the game has improved. This is a situation when asking why I have to do it isn't as important as knowing that I have to do it because of a previous FED ruling.

I'm not where my 2008 FED Rules Book is available, where does the book say that?

To not announce that the batter is out on an uncaught 3rd strike with 1B occupied and less than 2 outs is asking for trouble.

To even suggest that announcing the batter to be out is "coaching" is absurd, bordering on ludicrous.

It is nothing more than good preventative officiating to avoid all the calamities that Richard Siegel brought up. It's the prudent thing to do.

The argument that an umpire might accidentally mistake the situation when 2 are out and erroneously call out the batter is also a bunch of hooey. The umpires are the ones on the field who need to know the situation, and should not have any trouble telling which mechanic applies.

Expecting the coaches and players to know rules and situations is a pipe dream at best. These are the same people, remember, who think that the hands are part of the bat and that ties go to runners. Expecting them to think quickly enough when a 3rd strike hits the dirt to do the right thing is asking a lot of these mental giants.

So, whenever a 3rd strike uncaught/1B occupied/0 or 1 out situation occurred, I would say "batter's out." It merely points out a fact, no less a fact than an out call at any other base, and prevents a Ringling Brothers moment from happening.

Assuming shaving age kids.
I disagree.
I don't announce, verbalize, "batter out" on a swinging caught third strike. Why? Because everyone saw the swing and everyone knows he's out.
And they know he's out because they know the rule. Also because it is a very long standing and accepted mechanic.
Nor do I verbalize "take your base" after ball 4. Why? I assume they know the rule and are paying attention.

There's a rule that covers DTS less than 2 outs and I assume they know it and are paying attention to the situation. If they don't and/or aren't they may have to suffer the consequence.

Bases loaded 2 outs DTS.
When F2 retrieves the ball should I be telling him to simply touch HP because he may not know the rule? It would certainly prevent the possibility of him airmailing it to RF. And/or should I be yelling at the runners "You can run, you're being forced"?
They probably know the rule and just aren't paying attention. No harm in reminding them is there?

If the batter swings and is out I use the same non verbal mechanic every time, that way I know I'm giving no advantage to either team by my actions or words.

If I change my mechanic on a DTS and verbalize "out" I am only doing it to remind them of the rule. Where do I draw the line on whom I remind, what rules I remind them of and when I remind them?

Just another two cents..

When a batter-runner is out by 15 feet at first,...everyone in the park knows he's out. But umpires from MLB on down still give a casual out mechanic. Why? To complete the cycle. Pitchers pitches..batter hits...F4 fields...and F3 recieves. And 1BU gives the signal. Next....

When Ive sat down near the dugout, I could even hear the 1BU say.."Thats an out".... doesnt say it demonstrably, just in combo with the mechanic.

Whats wrong with signaling the out. casual but firm (dont do the macarena)........and a verbal "Batters out"...one time.
Everyone knows the BR is out on that groundball. And everyone should know the batter is out in this case when 1st is occupied with less than two out. But as we see, they dont always.
So, if we give a casual out at first on the grounder...why not give one here...with a verbal.."batters out". Everyone knows the Batter is out, or they should. We are just completing the cycle....next.

Batter's Out!
 

I am only referring to the "Batter's Out!" call after a DTS, w/ 1B occupied and less than two out.

I sat on the fence about whether it was appropriate or not. I also believed it was coaching. I wasn't actually coaching, I was making the right call. The call became easier to make over time. I found that I was more alert and in touch w/ a common game situation. It made me a better umpire.

Its tough trying to rememeber where/when/who provided me with the info about a correct DTS mechanic on this website when so many threads have been devoted to the subject. So I will link one of many similar discussions: http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...d+third+strike

:D Edited to delete "until I finally figured out that I was wrong" from 2nd sentence. :p

7-4.1.b Batter is out, 8-4.1.e Runner is out.

Is it not our job to call out when we have an out?

Not always.

New ump here (2nd year) and I (base ump) had a situation arise in a JV game with a more veteran partner (6 yrs plate ump).

Experience does not equal ability.

For those that choose not to progress...............


Tim.

True.

Runners at first and third and nobody out. Batter is out, he can not advance as first base is occupied. You make no call as you have nothing on the batter, because he is already out. I would suggest that the PU use the mechanic verbally announcing " Batter is out" preventing the chaos that is about to ensue

FED 2005 Case book, case 8.4.1K (play as in the OP). RULING: As soon as B2 starts to run to first, the umpire shall forcefully announce that B2 is out. The ball remains alive. It is the responsibility of the defense to know the conditions that warrant the necessity of a play being made.

imo: There's a difference between announcing the status of the ball / runner / etc. (not coaching) and telling either team waht to do with that information (throw the ball (or not), run (or not), etc. (this is coaching).

Bob - any idea why was this removed from the Case Book for the 2006 edition? I don't have CBs going back that far.

No idea. There's frequently a debate on what it means when an interp is published, but doesn't make it to the case book, or when a case is removed (absent a rules change, of course) -- is the case / interp no linger valid or is it just because of space considerations?

[QUOTE]Major league baseball players also shave

From a previous answer concerning this OP

World Series (game 6?) A J Pierzinski at bat (I'm sure I misspelled that) with 2 strikes and 2 outs. Pitch near the dirt, batter swings. F2 thinks he caught it and rolls the ball to the mound. BR takes off thinking F2 didn't catch it. Doug Eddings, PU, says nothing and watches all of this transpire.

If memory serves Pierzinski later came around and scored the winning run.

After that play even the PROS verbalize.

As Bob and others have mentioned calling the batter out on the situation provided is NOT coaching. It is merely stating a fact. What the players do with THAT information is up to them.

Comparing the OP to a swinging strike 3 is like comparing Apples / Oranges

The more information we can give like when F3 is off the bag (the proper mechanic is to give the "sweeping motion") is good for the game. It avoids a possible shi**ouse

Pete Booth