One of those days.....
 

<RANT>

Normal FED game between good team and ugly team.

Ugly team gets all mad because on a steal of 2B by good team. F4 says he held his glove on the kid stealing as the ball went into the glove, as he tags him on the hip 3 feet towards the 1B side of 2B, while R1's feet are on the bag. Pretty obvious blown call by BU ;).

Then later in the game ugly team F1, with the score 9-0 I think, throws ball to F3 on a pick when the F3 is 20 feet off 1B. "Well he got that right", says ugly team manager as I call the balk (who says he has 18 years of umpiring experience). In retrospect, I should have not called the balk, if he was the magic run, he would have gotten to 3B, and then the game could have ended.

Next 1/2 inning on a force play at 2B, R1 buries F6; slides across the bag full go, lead foot high, right into the knee of F6, who is behind the back edge of 2B. R1 is out about every way you can be at 2B, taking the BR with him, and F6 is holding his knee rolling on the ground.

Now here comes the good team manager. He has used all his subs and of course of the six guys he has subbed in do not include F6, so he says "I have no subs, who can I put in." "Coach, I'm sorry but you gotta play with 8."

"No way, I have to sub somebody."

"Coach, those are the rules." My partner and I are staring at each other. How do you tell him exactly where an obvious rule is, like, starters can reenter once, and must stay in the batting order, and you can end a game with less than nine players, etc. You just can't say, read it yourself tonight after dinner...

"I want to see this in the rule book."

Okay, here is my mistake-- I said; "Okay I have a rule book in my car." So out I go, since they have not carted F6 off the field. As I leave, the ugly team manager says: " I don't want to start an argument, why did you call my runner out at 1B?"

After explaining it was FPSR and illegal slide violation, he asked why I was leaving the field. I told him something.

By the time I get back, I hear-- "It's okay we straightened it out." And you know the rest already. (For those of you who don't-- the two managers got together, the ugly team manager picked a player off the good team bench, and he was the sub for the injured player. Yes, I know how bad it sounds, we allow an illegal sub into the game, or should I say my partner let it happen. Path of least resistance I guess, but since I was the BU I did not know for sure until after the game).

At that point, I'm just trying to get out of Dodge before something really bad happens. And so we did, and that is just the serious parts of the game. I'm glad I only have one mess like this every other season, but it is still irritating....

</RANT>

with all due respect sir...may I ask you...what the "f" kind of show are you running? what other rules do you choose to not enforce? yikes

Ew. I got stuck on a frosh game the other day and we had a BOO. The defense had already thrown one pitch to the next batter, so there was no out to be called. The coach didn't know the rule and cried about it. The scorekeeper actually started walking out onto the field to cry about it between innings, and I told him that I didn't have time to explain the rule to him.

I'm not sure that I would have allowed the illegal sub, even with both coaches' and UIC's agreement. Word of that gets back to the state office, and there might be questions to answer...

Just like ground rules, it doesn't matter that everyone agrees -- you just can't violate the rule book. I know that you know this jk, and were just looking to get out of he11, but still.

Johnny and Byron,

I am not running a doggone thing, or I wouldn't be talking about it. You think I wrote this because I'm happy about it? Look, in a lot of places today rules don't matter, if you can find something convenient that satisfies both sides. It stinks. And if one coach involved is/was an umpire, it's even worse. How in the world can you be down in a game and then agree to something like this? Now you have thrown your own team under the bus.

No, you can't violate the book, but when you are not the UIC, and you don't know until after the game the coaches agreed on this (though I admit I had a feeling it wasn;t the team manager they dressed), please tell me what you can do about it? I could walk off the field, or run both managers, or throw my partner under the bus, or do all those things and look like such a rube I won't get a game within 100 miles of my house.

Yeah, I could have just said, "Look coach, these are the rules, you don't like what we are saying, tough. Look it up yourself." But we had time to get a book and show him, and since obviously the coach has never had the situation before he doesn't know. Showing him in a book when you have to get it w/o delaying the game is not a mistake. Maybe I'm too ncie a guy to be an umpire, but if you have alternatives under the circumstances, I'll listen to them.

So, you didn't see anything malicious involving the runner at 2nd and F6?

Put a tent on your circus.

Actually as an umpire you are not there to appease both coaches. You are there to officiate the game by the playing rules. The fact that one of the coaches claimed to be an umpire is irrelevant.

A rules book was requested and the request was met. The alternatives for this game situation were in the retrieved rules book; sadly you and your partner chose to ignore them.

What would have been wrong with getting together with your partner and reviewing the rule and deciding to enforce the rule and then presenting this decision to the coaches? Your alternatives were either to enforce the rules or not enforce the rules. Sadly you and your partner chose not to.

Hey, I'm not telling you what to do. All I'm saying is that I would have stopped play if I returned to the field and magically there were 9 on defense again. I would have asked my partner what happened, tried to persuade him that we couldn't play that way no matter what the coaches agreed to, and if he did not agree I would tell him that full responsibility for the matter lay with him.

As for going to the rule book, if you can do it quickly I have no problem with it.

I'm sorry Johnny, but this is a classic example of what can happen when you lose control of the game to a point where now the coaches are running the show!! Never let the coaches intimidate you guys.

I do! There's no frickin' way I'm going to bring out a rule book. The rule book is here (Ump25 points to his head). If a coach believes I've misinterpretated (nod to G.W. there) a rule, he has a legitimate recourse: a protest. Period.

[QUOTE]I agree with anoter poster if R1 did burry F6 as you say what in the world is he still doing in the game. The score is 9-0 and you are lucky that in addition to one of teams being ugly the ENTIRE game didn't turn ugly.

This game was anything but "Normal" as you say in the beginning of your OP.


This illegal player (which both you and your partner KNOW is illegal) gets injured. His parents now sue.

What are you going to tell the judge?

Your honor the coaches made a "deal" and even though we knew it was a violation of the rules we let it happen anyhow. Make certain you have a "dream team" for attorneys.

I will exaggerate to get my point across.

Both Coaches 'agree" that there players do not need to wear batting helmets when batting. Since the coaches agreed and you and your partner IGNOR look at the ramifications.

Pete Booth

Yup. The rules are what I say they are.

"Coach, if you don't like it, protest."

If your state doesn't allow protests, then I guess the coach is screwed. Play ball.

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]You worry that an illegal substitute (who is only illegal cause he used his eligibility) may get hurt and sue you? How's it feel to live in irrational fear?

Lessons I have learned today
 

Thanks men for all the responses:

I am irritated at some, but that is how you learn:

1. Excuse the misapplication of the word "bury". I should have edited the post. It was an illegal slide, it was a FPSR violation, but R1 did not "bury" F6 like a runner burying a catcher at home plate. I thought for a second about MC, but it was not MC. It was a FPSR violation and an illegal slide violation. I have ejected people for MC, this was not MC. He didn't run over F6, he made illegal contact.

2. Men, you don't understand something, I was not on the field when the deal was made. Did they dress a manager? Was there a JV kid at the game not in uniform because there was no Varsity game that day? How in heaven's name do I know? I only found out about it after the game when I asked my partner who was the UIC if that was a legal player/sub. I won't detail the conversation, but let's suffice it say that I was not overly happy about it. At the time when I am coming back onto the field, and I am told we are ready to play, you're telling me I should have so little trust in my partner I should say: "Well (partner), is this a legal sub? Where did he come from?"

Okay, next time I'll throw my partner under the bus, eject at least one manager, if not two, and win the fight in the parking lot after the game. :confused: :rolleyes:

3. In this situation, where a coach is dealing with something he has never seen before, and especially with the state I work in that does not allow protests, this was IMO, a rare time when a rule book could be helpful to clearing up a problem. I knew the rule, my partner did to (I assume). In retrospect, I should not have gotten the book out. But I chose to try not to get into an argument with a probable ejection of a manager whose team just lost a player. Obviously that was a mistake, if I was on the field, this would have never happened.

If I was looking for scalps, or to prove I could have gotten them yesterday, I could have proved I was the hardest, toughest umpire in the Eastern US. But the game is for the kids, not my ego. I've dumped enough people to prove my bonafides in this area.

4. I would be interested to hear how you would handle it if the other manager said, 'let me pick a sub from your bench." If I was there, the answer is NO. Period. End of conversation. How do you handle the ensuing argument? If they refuse to hear no, do you eject people until you get your way, forfeit the game, or walk off the field?

5.I could say other stuff, but let's leave it here for now. One last lesson for me, be very careful what you put on the internet. I was and am irritated about this situation, I should not have let this out in public, since now I am not only irritated, I look like a fool in some of your eyes. That stings even more.

Coach, you can continue with eight. Let's play ball now. If the coach refuses to take the field, forfeit the game. If the game is forfeited, you and your partner leave the field together.

Michael,

I would be very interested to find out what your or my HS state association would say in response to your report to them about this forfeit...

I'd guess it would go something like this: "The coach refused to take the field? Good forfeit. Oh, here's a fine for the coach and a few days off to think about his actions."

Hmmmmmmmm....

Why did you call a balk on the pick off attempt at 1st base? Did the pitcher not step directly to the bag?

Why did you leave the field to get a rule book. I have NEVER done this, nor EVER seen that done in a high school game. Yes, the NCAA allows this, but it is only for the official to look something up in the book.

To not confer with your partner about a misapplied rule, is, well, bad! Ok, he was the UIC, and ultimately, it is his call, but I would have been having a seriously pointed discussion during and after the game about this.

rei,

FED Case Book 6.2.4J and comment A, p. 53.

As to the book, it was a mistake-- but the FED umpire's manual does recommend that the umpires have access to a rule book for situations like this. We did have a disucssion after the game.

Yes Bob, you and Michael are probably right. But I would not be happy about ending a game like this, would you?

My state is irrelevant, because I don't do FED ball.

I knew that was going to be what you would site for justification to call a balk.

So, with that in mind, that F3 is "20' off the bag". Do you think he could make a play on the runner from that far away if the runner slipped and fell? He most certainly could! Are you a fortune teller and can tell when and if the runner might slip and fall returning to the bag? Heck, I call out a runner about every 3rd game because they slip and fall on their way back to 1st! IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME!

I would not be so quick to assume that a play cannot be made. The pitcher made a legal pick off attempt. For me, F3 is going to need to be pretty close to F9 before I am willing to say he is not close enough to make a play. You get what I am saying? New guys that I mentor bring this up every year because it seems to happen every year. It almost always turns into something nasty for them when they balk it. Then I tell them to quit balking that "stretch" of a balk, and when they do, they quit getting nasty arguments about it. Maybe the offensive coach says "Hey, F3 is off the bag". Simply they reply "Coach, he is in proximity". That has ALWAYS ended the discussion with no further complaint.

Keep the rule book in the car. After 22 years of doing this, I can tell you that it will lead to nothing but trouble to go digging around in a rule book during the game. The only time I would consider this is if I was unsure, and the ruling would have an outcome in the game. I will never let a coaches request lead me to looking it up during the game. You were sure you had it right, and delayed the game to humor the coach who doesn't know jack, then you got your partner making deals without you there. NOW do you see why I say "Keep the rule book in the car" and don't go get it during a game? ;)

rei
 

Two good points, but...

1. you cannot assume the offense is going to screw up so F3 can make a play here. If he is not in the vicinity of the base, it is a balk. Even though FED has a looser standard than NCAA or OBR, it is still a balk here.

I have almost 30 years experience, and yes, I should have left the book where it was. But, under the circumstances as I had them at the field at the time (delay, well I have time..) I thought it was okay to do.

.

This is an inaccurate statement. The fielder's proximity to the base is irrelevant.

Correct! The key to balk/no balk is does F3 have a legitimate play on R1.

There is an exception, of course (isn't there always?): even if F3 isn't anywhere near the base and no play is being made, if the ball is thrown TO first base, no balk is to be called. Of course, odds are that when this occurs, R1 is gonna take off to second.

Reddest of the Red Flags
 

We have a WINNER! Yeee yikes!

The Mother of Mistakes. (as said by the poster).

I would not be happy that the game ended this way either, but I would be very satisfied knowing that my partner and I enforced the rules the game was ment to be played under.

Men, remember this is FED
 

Casebook p.53, 6.2.4j: "Proximity is umpire judgment and is based on whether the fielder is close enough to the base to legitimately make a play on the runner."

So it is a matter of distance and ability to make a play by F3. In this situation he was 20' or more away, was not in the process of making a play, and was in no position to make a play. I stand by what I said, even if it was not to everyone's liking.

Also, with respect, the mother of all mistakes was not going out to get a rule book. It was an error, but it was done for a legit reason with good intentions on my part. The thing did blow up in my face, but I can guarantee you that nobody at the game other than me cared about this, and nobody but us cares about it now. And that may just be the most frustrating thing of all.

Could we lock up this thread now?

You said FED's standard's were looser than OBR or NCAA. That is inaccurate. Neither OBR nor NCAA has any requirement on F3's proximity. The wording of your OP implied you were referring to OBR and NCAA.

BTW, because I don't do FED ball by my own choosing--I'd rather stick to this world when umpiring baseball--I don't reply with rules explanations dealing with FED. I stick to what I know best, that being OBR and NCAA.

[I do not live in irrational fear but in the world of REALITY

People sue over the trivial of matters. Why give them amunition when you do not have to.

I gather from your response that you would allow coaches to make "deals" I do not.

I fear no one especially soemone who posts on the internet.

Pete Booth

Well, again, I am no fortune teller. When that pitcher goes to make his move to first, ANYTHING can happen. I am NOT in the mind set to award bases when the pitcher is doing stuff right. ;) If I was evaluating you on this situation, I would stand by my way of thinking. ;) But, I wasn't, and you seemingly got away with it.

I am concerned about how you are taking your lumps right now.;)

No rule books on the field, fully agree. Proves nothing, solves nothing, creates and endless controversy. Let them protst.

Mess? Yep, Partner, Dump him.

Looks like to me you were trying to do the right thing then did the wrong things.

rei, and others
 

Thank you, and thanks to all who posted on this subject. I really appreciate it.

The balk conversation here has been real good, to sharpen the focus here. Maybe it was one of those old "you have to be there to see it posts", but F3 is nowhere close to make a play on the pick. IMO it was a balk. The rule seems pretty clear as interpreted in the case book, which is what I went by.

As to "lumps", I was a little boy when I first heard Julie Andrews sing in Disney's Mary Poppins "Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down..." It is tough to get ripped, but that is how you learn sometimes. And if you stop learning, well, you start dying. I've made mistakes in front of thousands of people before, so this kind of evaluation is not too bad.

But from another thread, it seems that I am getting off easily compared to Garth getting thrown under the bus...

I once had to forfeit a H.S. game because the coach refused to comply with an order I gave him and Ohio and his school backed me of the forfeit. The coach was not asked back the next year.