Failure to Slide
 

Well, it didn't take too long. Our first game of the season and one of my best players got picked off 3rd, ran to home, was thrown out, then ran into the catcher (not a violent contact - they both stayed on their feet - but their bodies did collide). Home umpire called him out on the tag then ejected him from the game for not sliding.

First of all, as a coach I take the responsibility for not having taught the team that you have to slide if a tag is imminent (we're playing under USSSA rules). Having sad that I read the rule about sliding and it said that if the contact is malicious that is supersedes obstruction and that the runner may be ejected on the umpire's discretion. In the comment it says that umpire should judge the runner's intent. In our case the runner did not "load" up and barrel into the catcher and both remained on their feet after the contact.

This is a judgment call, obviously, as well as a rules interpretation. It was still frustrating though and the player took it hard (that's how I'm sure it wasn't malicious - he'd have been celebrating the hit and protesting the ejection if it was - neither of which occurred). I'm going through the rules now and will try to bring out similar nuggets for the players to use going forward.

My ask from you all is if there are any other USSSA specific rules that you are aware of that would be good to pass on to an 11U team? In other words, what are some of the common rule gaffes you've seen players make as they move up (or just in general)? The rule book, as you know, is long and open to interpretation, and my time with them is short so I would appreciate any assistance you could offer.

I'd have to see the play...but I don't know of a rule out there that has a "must slide" provision...

Got my USSSA book right here.

USSSA Rule 8.04D: Whenever a tag play is evident, runners must slide, go around or seek to avoid contact with the fielder and/or catcher. Attempting to jump, leap, or dive over a the fielder and/or catcher is not an act of avoiding contact. Malicious contact shall supersede all obstruction penalties. PENALTY: Runner shall be called out and may be ejected from the game at the umpres discretion. COMMENT: When enforcing this rule, the umpire should judge the runner's intent. If the umpire adjudges that the contact was unintentional, then the runer shall only be called out. If the umpire adjudges that the contact was intentional and/or malicious, then the runner shall be called out and ejected from the game.

The key to this rule, as Rufus has already mentioned, is umpire's judgement. Did he feel the contact was intentional or malicious? If he does, then he can eject.

In response to your other question, other rule gaffes I see players (and coaches) at this level make are:

-Failure to pause in the set position
-Thinking the baseline belongs to the runner and they are allowed to contact a fielder even when they are making a play on a batted ball
-Sending stealing runners back to their bases at the time of pitch on foul-tips because they think its a dead ball
-And this one is on coaches: MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND USSSA PITCHING LIMITATIONS! Review the three column chart in USSSA Rule 8.05, and don't cost your team a victory because you throw a pitcher too many innings. I see it happen at least once a year.

What's USSSA? I'm assuming that I don't work USSSA...that rule is silly

As usual: there is no "must slide" rule. The safety rule is: slide or avoid contact.

avoid contact
 

The best way I've seen it taught is "avoid contact with the fielder making the play". Seems to be a good mental approach for young players.

Saying you "must slide" is never a good thing.

Thanks
David

That's just as misleading as "must slide." What's so hard about "slide OR avoid contact"?

Not misleading with young players ... that's who can benefit from this mentality. My son's coach used this last year and it worked great.

You can slide and have malicious contact, but if you avoid contact, it's kind of difficult.

Thanks
David

Yes, misleading to everyone. There is no "must slide" rule. There is no "avoid contact" rule. To say that a player must always do (the same) one of these is wrong, and thus misleading.

So, you advocate avoiding contact on every play because you have to teach players to avoid malicious contact? Sounds like the baby's gone out with the bathwater.

Sorry, I guess one of us missed the point. The initial post was about USSSA ball and dealing with 11 yr olds. This is not OBR or FED rules we are talking about.

But, FED does have the same slide or avoid contact rule you mentioned. However, to try and explain that to an 11 year old, ain't gonna happen.

But its easy to tell them if he has the ball, you have to try and avoid him, go around, slide, jump over, what ever you want. Then let the umpire make the call.

But by avoiding, you will NOT get ejected which is what happened in the game mentioned above.

Now for older players etc., you and I will agree, use the words in the book.

Thanks
David

It's my contention that if a kid can swing the bat, then he can learn the rules. Teaching the rules wrong is one way myths get perpetuated.

11 year olds are fully capable of understanding slide or avoid contact, whether catcher has the ball or not. Never tell them to jump over because you have thus given bad information.

I find myself of like mind with mbyron and DG.

From my experience, whatever age you begin to start teaching the players the more "complicated rules", interference & obstruction, appeals, balks & baserunning, it takes them a little while to get it. I have found that 11 year olds learn these almost as quickly as 14 year olds when being first taught the concepts.

Teach 'em right from the "get go".

JM

Please remember it is not "slide or avoid contact." It is slide or ATTEMPT to avoid contact, or TRY to avoid contact, or SEEK to avoid contact.

Contact happens.

The USSSA rule is typical of a mis-written and mis-interpreted rule. This is because the writers of the rule had no gramatacl training and the readers are just as stupid. *

Here's the rule:** note no reference to TwoBits is intended other than that he was the author of the post with the rule. ***Maybe it would be better if it were written as follows:


Now, not even a coach could call this a "must slide" rule.

Ooops! I just realized that I am expecting coaches to be intelligent! Forget the whole thing!

Oz, that's not correct either. Sliding directly into a catcher blocking the plate could hardly be interpreted as trying to avoid contact, yet it is perfectly legal under these safety rules.

I've used the phrase "Get Down, Go Around or Give Up." Then, explain the terms: Get Down = Slide; what's legal, what's not. etc.

Yep. Jumping over a fielder has been illegal in FED for years, and starting this year its also illegal in USSSA.

United States Specialty Sports Association. Its an organization that governs many differents sports from baseball and basketball to golf and karate. They also create rules for modified sports such as six person indoor softball.

Speaking on the baseball part, USSSA has taken off here in the midwest and many travel team tournaments use that set of rules and by-laws.

http://www.usssa.com

[QUOTE]The aforementioned is the problem with amateur baseball these days.

Bottom Line: There will be contact. The question? Is it malicious and/or legal

If you want to explain the rule to an 11 yr. old then explain by example. If you can get a tape of what Pete Rose did to Ray Fosse, then show it to him and say

You CANNOT do that or any other violent collission we had in the past regarding plays at the plate.

Also, if you go strictly by this wording you are going to have a "can of worms" on your hand.

Example: R3 heading home, a tag play is evident HOWEVER, the ball now sails over F2's head or gets by F2. According to the way the rule is written R3 MUST slide even though there is no need to.

IMO, insurance companies have ruined amateur baseball and each year the game gets diluted by safety rule changes.

Then who gets the blame? Of Course we do because we are the ones who have to enforce these rules.

IMO, simply mirror the NCAA Collission rule which IMO makes the best sense. Collission un-avoidable for the most part play on. Collission avoidable and violated then penalize.

I do not like phrases such as "avoid contact" If you want to avoid contact then play golf.

Pete Booth

That's the way I've used it in HS, also when talking with even "coaches who don't know the rules"

Especially useful at second when the coach comes out saying "he didn't slide"

It covers it all and easy to understand!

In my training of umpires, we just tell them "never tell anyone they have to slide" If someone violates a contact rule anywhere, then we just umpire.

The way the rule interpreters are moving, in youth ball its just a matter of time and the only way they will be able to make contact is with a slide though.

Thank goodness I don't do small ball anymore, but I do have to endure it with my 10 year old ...

Thanks
David

Persistent and accidental obstruction (OBS); kids watching the bal or game and not clearing th base paths.

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]The complete rule is:

USSSA Rule 8.04D: Whenever a tag play is evident, runners must slide, go aroundor seek to avoid contact with the fielder and/or catcher.

My interpretation and the way it should be explained to coaches is that a runner has three choices:
1) Slide
2) Go around
3) Seek to avoid contact

It's not a runner "must slide" every time.

You're right MB! See even a seasoned umpire can't write a rule about having a runner slide! So why are people trying write this $hit all the time! :eek:

[QUOTE=TwoBits]I do not like the wording "seek to avoid contact"

Baseball contrary to popular belief IS a contact sport. The rule is vague and can cause all kinds of problems the way it is worded.

Also, suppose a runner comes in standing up when a play is evident. Is that act alone reason to call the out. As I mentioned even though a tag play is evident doesn't mean the runner has the three choices you gave. If the ball gets away or the throw is off line why does the runner have to slide, Go around or seek to avoid contact.

Whenever a league puts in it's own "house rule" beware.

USSSA should have simply adopted the FED/NCAA rule as WRITTEN without adding their own nuances to it.

Pete Booth

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]Pete,

Sadly you're correct. Give it a few more years and if there is contact on the field someone will expect a call.

Lawsuits will eventually ruin the game of baseball as we knew it when we were growing up.

Combine the mentality we played with, "if he's in the way run over him" with the rule changes of today and kids can't help but be confused.

Thanks
David

[QUOTE]David IMO you are right-on about insurance companies ruining amateur baseball.

Do not know about the rest of the country but in my area HS baseball is "low on the totum poll" when it comes to budget allotment.

Without all these safety rules (and they seem to be modified each and every year) the schools could not afford the insurance costs, hence the rules have been 'watered down"

I envy the baseball officials from my generation. basically all they had to do was show up and call the game balls / strikes / safes and outs. The game was policed BY US and none of this checking of equipment.

Also, when I played even if you were 100% correct we could not argue with an official. if we did the coach sat us down. He was the Only one who would go out and question an official.

Pete Booth

USSSA does have one up on local league rules. "Seek to avoid contact" gives the umpire control to use his judgement, and if I believe the runner was trying to avoid contact, then he's going to be okay. Local leagues and their "must slide" rule eliminates that option.

The bottom line is to avoid malicious contact and not have 11 year olds attempt a violent home plate collision like they see on TV.

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]"All kinds of problems" for whom? Umpires? So what?

The rule is there to meet insurance regulations/guidelines and if this makes your life difficult, then go call MiLB. I tire of hearing the constant whine from umpires about how rules interps makes tier lives soooooo troblesome. I have a clue for all of you.

It's going to get worse than better.

Best you GTF up and deal with the realities, adults for many years tauaght kids to play baseball like football. The injuries and fatalities mounted until there haad to b something done. Now that these rules are being implemented, Pete here claims they create "all kinds of problems".

The problems are not the rules, they are Pete Booth.

I don't disagree with that.

I don't if the problem really is Pete Booth, as you go on to say, but I wonder about that last sentence.

I've only been back in the States for about 14 months, now, but "fatalities mounted" ??? What, was there some kind of Jericho-like apocalypse I didn't hear about?

Kids have been killed, this much I know, but from line drives to the chest and head, usually. Is that somehow the fault of Evil Coaching? "Hit that ball in this way, son, so it stops his heart on contact."

Have you got numbers or anything on this subject?

Just consider the source...

Example: R3 heading home, a tag play is evident HOWEVER, the ball now sails over F2's head or gets by F2. According to the way the rule is written R3 MUST slide even though there is no need to.

How can a tag play be evident if F2 doesn't have the ball?

The definition of evident is not "F2 has the ball". By evident I interpret to mean the old FED terminolgy "imminent in nature" If the USSSA houserule did mean "A fileder has possession of the ball" then that's how they should have worded it.

Also, a runner does not have only 3 choices as was mentioned in the USSSA rule. They can come in "standing up", however, if you go by their "house rule" that is not one of the options.

Personally (and FED is now doing this somewhat) is go by the NCAA ruling concerning collisions. Collision un-avoidabe - play on Collission avoidable then penalize. IMO, FED will also adopt this type language in the years to come.

You cannot take "contact" out of baseball.

Pete Booth

My interpretation would be that it isn't about "evident", it's about "tag play". No ball, no play. Similar to the LL rule that only kicks in if the fielder actually has the ball.

Rich your answer is the point. Your interpretation would be different from mine so on an so forth.

At least LL's rule is SPECIFIC the USSSA rule is not it's vague in nature

Pete Booth

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]I have two great videos of maliciouis collision at the plate, one when my son (the catcher) was 10 and another when we was 11. These were in Bambino games (Babe Ruth Ripken division was formerly called Babe Ruth Bambino division) at a time when Babe Ruth did not have a malicious contact rule. I wrote Babe Ruth baseball on the subject and included the videos. A couple years later the rule was added to all divisions. I will never know if my letter and videos had any impact on that decision but I hope they did.

11 year olds can definitely be taught what not to do even without videos. By nature they want to avoid malicious contact. They would have to be coached to do it. Teaching them not to do it is easy..

It all started when they mandating that all players wear helmets. Idiots. It all went downhill from there.

Man, I'm not looking forward to getting old, grumpy and stupid.

What rule set mandates all players wear helmets?

:)

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]That's because that's the place where many umpires start. I was watching a freshman game, and the PU had his feet set in concrete. Never moved from behind the dish to make any call. Taking his mask off was a huge effort, and rarely done.

But what do you expect? Who else can work games at 3pm on a weekday? Hobos, i.e. the low rung on the totum pole.

I hate all this safety stuff too. Helmets! Once they mandated helmets on kids, it all went to HE!! I tell you!

Man, I'm not looking forward to getting old, grumpy, myopic and stupid.

Getting? :D

God, I read that and I wonder how I cope year upon year.

I know: I just call the freaking games and I don't worry about it.

Saturday I had my first games. Pitcher licks hand, goes to the ball, steps on the rubber. Ball 1. Easy.

Obstruction? Even easier this year than before. I'll call it just how they want it.

Why wring your hands over it? Just call the game.

Sure did. Posted in a new thread, got deleted. Take it up with the mystery deldeter since Jenkins isn't doing it.